Job Discussion Forums

[PC Parrot]

[revenger2013]

[PC Parrot]

Actually my first comment gave you the benefit of the doubt. Hence the use of the conditional. I now see I need not have bothered.

And since you asked, I straight A'd the Aston MSc course 11 years ago and work in a department of over 150 staff with a min entry requirement of MA Tesol. Many of the staff have related PhD's.

Regarding the arrogance, weren't you the one saying 'Trust me. I'm studying this at the moment'. How arrogant and ridiculous is that. Real academic pedigree!

Now if this teacher you speak of were simply to be a member of the public that the language learner can ask questions of such as a shop worker etc .. then I would agree. But you seem to be insisting that the language learner meet someone who is trained in language instruction. Why? Because you read it in a book. Are you quite sure that the writer of the book would agree with your ultra restrictive interpretation of his research? I'm not.

[revenger2013]

[PC Parrot]

You added that link after I had started replying. As you well know, it was not in your original post.

And by the way, the Aston MSc doesn't give out first distinction, first class honours etc. That's only at BA level.

Returning to the original topic, you're changing your position. Now you're saying that taking a course would be the best way. Before, you implied it was the only way. There is a big difference.

Of course, we facilitate. But motivated intelligent people do not need a formal teacher.

[revenger2013]

[PC Parrot]

I know the link is there for all to see. What I'm saying is that it wasn't there when I clicked reply. One's post is only shown as edited after someone else has posted a reply. Not while they are writing a reply.

Anyway, although you talk of Burton as though no-one has ever heard of him, at least you're moderating what you say about language learning. And unsurprisingly, you're starting to make sense.

I guess you're no longer supporting this view -

[it'snotmyfault]

I know I've wasted a few minutes of my precious time, but I thought this site was moderated.
Why should we have to put up with this kind of behaviour?

[7969]

[spiral78]

I think it's likely rare that a second language learner never takes a formal lesson at any point in the process, but I don't see why it couldn't be done, particularly given a supportive immersion environment.

[cmp45]

[RoscoeTX]

I thought I would add my two cents before this thread gets locked down...and I know this thread has morphed several times, but regarding the original post question.

I can honestly say, I have gained and received so much more than I could have ever expected in being a TEFL teacher. Before starting on this path I never imagined things would turn out so amazingly. During my 5 years in Moscow I have made a family, traveled to exotic and breath-taking new lands, gained experience in other areas besides teaching, saved money and built up a more positive view of myself as a person.

Sure there have been bumps in the road, but I have a firm belief that TEFL teaching has saved my life!! I have absolutely no regrets! And I have no doubts TEFL is a legitimate and challenging career.

I wish all of you newbies, middle of the roaders and old-timers the best of luck in your continued endeavors.

[revenger2013]

[SledgeCleaver]

Sheesh guys. Both sides are obviously somewhat correct here.

1. Classes do help you to learn a language, if they are taught well. The whole point of the "communicative method" is to immerse people in a language within the class itself, to the extent possible. Also, these classes are meant as a base, not as a path to true fluency. If you use that base to read, listen, and talk in that language whenever possible, you will progress. The problem is the students who go to two classes a week and don't take any time to expand that knowledge outside of class - they only learn English a couple hours a week, and within those lessons they might only speak or write (ie. PRODUCE language) for 5-15 minutes, depending on the size of the class and the skill of the teacher. However, even if you never read or talk outside of class, you can progress. It just takes time. Consider Scandinavians, who can basically all speak English. Even the dumb unmotivated ones will learn something when they've had English classes for 10 years in school. It's pretty hard to imagine how an English teacher of all people can be truly convinced that language classes don't help people learn. You're either a crap teacher, or you expect your students to progress too quickly. Maybe you think a person who "knows" a language never makes mistakes, which simply isn't true. Nobody reaches fluency overnight, and fluent people will often never become semi-native. Learning languages is difficult for 99.9% of people, but that doesn't mean it can't be done. Anyways, there are many people fluent in English who have never even traveled to a foreign country, let alone stayed long enough to become "immersed." Most of these people learned English by, duh duh duh, taking English classes.

2. You can definitely learn a language without going to class. I learned German and now speak it fairly fluently, and didn't take any classes except a few free classes at a local coffee shop. However, what I noticed is that whereas my progress was fairly slow in the first 15-18 months, after that it skyrocketed and I went from intermediate at 18 months to semi-fluent at 24 months. Thus, in my opinion, it's much easier to reach fluency from the intermediate level than to reach the intermediate level in the first place, which requires a basic knowledge of grammar and the slow building of vocabulary. After that, your fluency takes off, especially since the average speaker only uses about 2,000 words on a regular basis, and because once you can hold regular semi-interesting conversations you pick up the language more organically; you don't have to study vocab lists, you just learn words from hearing others talk, and your speed and accuracy increases quickly. Anyways, this does provide evidence against Demitrescou saying his Greek wasn't helped by school. It seems to me your Greek school brought you to the level whereby immersion helped immensely. If you're a pure beginner, it's my opinion that immersion doesn't help much; you HAVE to study somewhat, at least independently, unless you have a terrific talent with languages. Maybe immersion in German worked for me because German is so similar to English. But in reality, I did have to study vocab and grammar at first, even if it was on my own. Basically, I just tried to read short things, write people letters or texts, and chat about stupid things whenever possible. Which is an immersion method, more or less. In any case, I can't truly say if "pure immersion" really works, since I'm not the sort of person who can possibly wait around like a plant to see if I just "pick the language up." Also, there is a difference in learning styles. I am a visual/linguistic learner, meaning I learn better when I read or write, as opposed to just hearing. I can't imagine studying a language without reading and writing it; when I speak, I sometimes see the word I'm saying in my head, and then I know how to speak it. Anyways, the "immersion" method is far from foolproof without independent study or classes. In Germany, for example, I know people who have lived there for 10 bloody years, and can't speak a word, beyond maybe "please" and "thank you." Don't ask me how this is even possible. You have really got to be a thick and incurious person to end up in such a situation.

[scot47]

Does a bus driver crave recognition ? Why should a teacher ?