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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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 Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| fat_chris wrote: |
| Sashadroogie wrote: |
Dear respected Comrade Fat Chris
Monday is Day of People's Unity, and November 7 is the Day of the Great October Socialist Revolution. How about November 9? It will take a day to recover from the festivities. Then shall we stride arm in arm into victory! Victory over the wretched Piggie classes that poison EFL in East Asia! Ura!!
With Communist greetings
Sasha |
Dear Esteemed Comrade Sasha,
Hmm... November 9th is Saturday, the day of the Great Hangover. It may be difficult to round up the Capitalist Roaders and saboteurs then. We must overcome these obstacles to victory though! We must have a new Long March to glorious TEFL revolution!
Hmm, this sovietisation is not as easy as it sounds but we must triumph over the scheduling challenges that have been set upon us by the filthy landlords and businessmen! May we find love for the great TEFL sovietisation in our hearts to push us through in the moment of great difficulty.
Respectfully,
Comrade fat_chris |
Dear respected comrade Fat Chris
These difficulties are nothing. Victory and a Glorious Future are ours. It's inevitable historically. But appointing me Supreme Vozhd of all Chinese People's TEFL factories will greatly accelerate this inevitability. We could even achieve five in four!! Do you at least have a Poliburo there? Put the question to a vote.
With Communist greetings
Sasha |
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fat_chris
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 3198
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
Dear respected comrade Fat Chris
These difficulties are nothing. Victory and a Glorious Future are ours. It's inevitable historically. But appointing me Supreme Vozhd of all Chinese People's TEFL factories will greatly accelerate this inevitability. We could even achieve five in four!! Do you at least have a Poliburo there? Put the question to a vote.
With Communist greetings
Sasha |
Dear Esteemed Comrade Sasha,
You are exhibiting the correct revolutionary way of thinking. A revolution is a not a dinner party.
I thank you and commend you for reminding me of the revolutionary fervor of our great comrades who have come before us and overcome much, much greater difficulties than the ones we currently face in our latest undertaking to continue the struggle against the overlords and exploiting classes.
The revolutionary fervor burns greatly in our hearts! The great sovietisation of TEFL in China and throughout East Eurasia shall be attained! I shall convene a special symposium of the Great China TEFL Politburo to prepare the way for you to become Vozhd and to assemble the next generation to accelerate the Great TEFL Revolution in East Eurasia! I now believe that your Greatness will help us achieve five in three! The proletariat shall rejoice amidst their current struggles!
Respectfully,
Comrade fat_chris |
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fat_chris
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 3198
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| damn_my_eyes wrote: |
| Prof.Gringo wrote: |
| FreakingTea wrote: |
This is my kind of thread! All power to the soviets! |
TEFL'ers of the World UNITE! |
Unless you're gay or black  |
ESPECIALLY if you're gay or black. The revolution is for all!
Warm regards,
fat_chris |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
But moving back to learners themselves, have a look at an IELTS comparison of results by region. You'll see that Russia scores a whole band higher than most of the countries in your region. |
While true for Academic IELTS scores where China places last among Asian nations, there seems to be little correlation between job qual req'ts and test scores: compare Korea at 5.9 (no exp req'd) with Saudi Arabia at 5.0 (MA TESOL/Delta req'd). But I will concede that compared with EF's English Proficiency Index, IELTS GT scores more accurately reflect what I'd expect:
Russia: 6.4
France: 6.7
Italy: 6.1
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China: 6.0
Vietnam: 5.9
Japan: 5.7
Korea: 5.6
Thailand: 5.5 |
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cloud_pleaser
Joined: 29 Aug 2012
Posts: 83
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| Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| fat_chris wrote: |
| Sashadroogie wrote: |
Dear respected comrade Fat Chris
These difficulties are nothing. Victory and a Glorious Future are ours. It's inevitable historically. But appointing me Supreme Vozhd of all Chinese People's TEFL factories will greatly accelerate this inevitability. We could even achieve five in four!! Do you at least have a Poliburo there? Put the question to a vote.
With Communist greetings
Sasha |
Dear Esteemed Comrade Sasha,
You are exhibiting the correct revolutionary way of thinking. A revolution is a not a dinner party.
I thank you and commend you for reminding me of the revolutionary fervor of our great comrades who have come before us and overcome much, much greater difficulties than the ones we currently face in our latest undertaking to continue the struggle against the overlords and exploiting classes.
The revolutionary fervor burns greatly in our hearts! The great sovietisation of TEFL in China and throughout East Eurasia shall be attained! I shall convene a special symposium of the Great China TEFL Politburo to prepare the way for you to become Vozhd and to assemble the next generation to accelerate the Great TEFL Revolution in East Eurasia! I now believe that your Greatness will help us achieve five in three! The proletariat shall rejoice amidst their current struggles!
Respectfully,
Comrade fat_chris |
As you made these monumentous pronouncements, The East is Red came booming out of my universities beleagered PA system and I shed a tear of Communist pride |
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fat_chris
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 3198
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 5:16 am Post subject: |
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| cloud_pleaser wrote: |
| As you made these monumentous pronouncements, The East is Red came booming out of my universities beleagered PA system and I shed a tear of Communist pride |
Warm regards,
fat_chris |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:35 am Post subject: |
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| LongShiKong wrote: |
| Sashadroogie wrote: |
But moving back to learners themselves, have a look at an IELTS comparison of results by region. You'll see that Russia scores a whole band higher than most of the countries in your region. |
While true for Academic IELTS scores where China places last among Asian nations, there seems to be little correlation between job qual req'ts and test scores: compare Korea at 5.9 (no exp req'd) with Saudi Arabia at 5.0 (MA TESOL/Delta req'd). But I will concede that compared with EF's English Proficiency Index, IELTS GT scores more accurately reflect what I'd expect:
Russia: 6.4
France: 6.7
Italy: 6.1
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China: 6.0
Vietnam: 5.9
Japan: 5.7
Korea: 5.6
Thailand: 5.5 |
To even consider EF's marketing bumf as any sort of guide in the first place is...misguided. Now have a look at Cambridge exam results by region, and see if they meet your expectations.
As for a correlation between teacher qualification and learner success, it is fair point that they do not seem to be linked. However, learners' L1, and its distance from English, is probably more significant than a teacher having an MA or not. For example, the vast majority of foreign teachers in Russia would have only cert level qualifications, while a minority has a Delta or equivalent. Yet, the learner proficiency scores are nearly higher in every comparison (apart from EF's laughable nonsense.)
And as for local teachers, if there were some scale available for comparison, I'd predict that Eastern European teachers of English would leave the rest of the world behind in the dust, except for Scandinavia and the Netherlands etc.
So, I repeat my claim which seemed to surprise you - Russia is way ahead of your region in nearly every EFL regard, except brute numbers of learners.
That's what I'm talking about.
Join us, brother. See the light. The future is ours. Resistance is futile. Don't stand in the way of Progress. To do so is to relegate yourself to the dustbin of History. Join the Party. Report to Fat Chris. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:51 am Post subject: |
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| fat_chris wrote: |
| Sashadroogie wrote: |
Dear respected comrade Fat Chris
These difficulties are nothing. Victory and a Glorious Future are ours. It's inevitable historically. But appointing me Supreme Vozhd of all Chinese People's TEFL factories will greatly accelerate this inevitability. We could even achieve five in four!! Do you at least have a Poliburo there? Put the question to a vote.
With Communist greetings
Sasha |
Dear Esteemed Comrade Sasha,
You are exhibiting the correct revolutionary way of thinking. A revolution is a not a dinner party.
I thank you and commend you for reminding me of the revolutionary fervor of our great comrades who have come before us and overcome much, much greater difficulties than the ones we currently face in our latest undertaking to continue the struggle against the overlords and exploiting classes.
The revolutionary fervor burns greatly in our hearts! The great sovietisation of TEFL in China and throughout East Eurasia shall be attained! I shall convene a special symposium of the Great China TEFL Politburo to prepare the way for you to become Vozhd and to assemble the next generation to accelerate the Great TEFL Revolution in East Eurasia! I now believe that your Greatness will help us achieve five in three! The proletariat shall rejoice amidst their current struggles!
Respectfully,
Comrade fat_chris |
Dear respected comrade Fat Chris
I share your sentiments entirely, and am heartened to note such high levels of Socialist ardour emanating from the Southern reaches of Eurasia. So, while revolution is indeed nothing remotely like a dinner party, I'd like to cordially invite you to attend one in the Kremlin, with the rest of the Party in Moscow. We can toast everlasting friendship, exchange cultural anecdotes, dance quaint village routines like Cossacks, and decide various problems concerning unrehabilitatable elements of society.
By the way, please expect an application to join the Chinese TEFL soviet from Longshikong. You may need to vigorously process this one, as there have been rumours of bourgeois sentiment and general leanings to individuality. However, benefit of the doubt may apply, as it is possible that exposure to Piggie propaganda over a lengthy period may be the culprit, and so re-education could help restore correct thinking.
Brother! Comrade! Fellow Traveller! I raise my overbrimming stopka to you! Long live the Chinese TEFL soviet! Long live the Great TEFL Leap forward! Ura! Ura! Ura! Forward to Victory!! |
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Guerciotti
Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 842
Location: In a sleazy bar killing all the bad guys.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| ... an assertion that EFL teachers in Russia are, on average, more qualified than those in China. |
OK, OK, we get it. You made your point already.
Who cares?
Next? |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 7:43 am Post subject: |
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| Longshikong does. |
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choudoufu
Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC
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| Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 7:49 am Post subject: |
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all right, so why don't you party organizers organize some sort of,
you know, collectivist association for us oppressed foreign devils?
i'm thinking maybe a group that could represent our interests, and
maybe bargain collectively and such.
call it, oh, i don't know, maybe the "China Foreign Teachers Soviet."
(but please limit the спам) |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
Now have a look at Cambridge exam results by region, and see if they meet your expectations. |
Sasha, those are IELTS results for the 2012 General Test. Russia's not even a half band above China, the same 0.4 lead as in 2007.
As for Academic Test results, Russia's only a half band above Japan, Korea, Vietnam and Thailand and while it's true that back in 2007, it was more than a band above what remains Asia's weakest AT performer, China, that gap is diminishing.
| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| ...learners' L1, and its distance from English, is probably more significant... |
But then why does France lag behind Greece and Malaysia, or Taiwan outperform Spain? Although on the surface, that and The Economist's conjectures regarding wealth-dependent export economics make sense, would you not agree that educational culture is far most significant? To explain the ME's dismal IELTs results despite high ed cred req'ts, this IELTS examiner stated:
| Dedicated wrote: |
Usually, Arab students score quite well on the speaking and listening sections of the exam, but poorly on the reading and writing. As regards reading, Arab students have generally only been exposed to the traditional bottom-up approach or grammar translation method when taught reading. This is "word forward reading" leading to slow, often aloud, subvocalization as they would do when reading the Holy Quran. This slows them down dreadfully in the IELTS reading, which has about 2,700 words in 3 passages and 40 questions in one hour.
As for writing, Arabs write from right to left and have a very different grammar to English. Arabic has a 3 consonant root at its base so students are often confused by the lack of patterns in English that would allow them to distinguish nouns from verbs and consequently make many errors in word forms. Short vowels are unimportant in Arabic and do not appear in writing, leading to frequent spelling mistakes in English. They have no verb "to be" in the present tense and no auxiliary "do" and no modal verbs.
Arab students on average continue to be an oral culture - they write and read little in Arabic, let alone in English. They are often entered unprepared (by institutions such as HCT) into the IELTS exam so see how they will "get on". This probably accounts for these statistics. |
| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| ...apart from EF's laughable nonsense. |
TBH, I didn't look at their test nor methods nor in-depth analysis but what specific objections do you have? Just curious. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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Cambridge exams and IELTS are not the same thing. Do a Google search of FCE, CAE, and CPE.
As for EF, the whole chain is a joke. Their so-called research even more so. For a start, it is online. Forget about any niceties such as test security and reliability, not to mention accuracy.
I thought you had serious issues with assessment in TEFL generally? Surely you do not need these obvious failings pointed out? |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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As to your other points, France has traditionally shown possibly less interest in learning foreign languages than English speakers in the UK. That is most likely the underlying cause for poor showing there.
As for export economics, that seems to be a point stretched a little too thin. Not so sure how well it holds up under closer inspection.
As for wealthy Arabs doing poorly at IELTS, the quoted information, while certainly true in itself, does not seem to me to be the whole reason for their low marks. Russian speakers too are presented with a range of issues, such as: a different alphabet; a largely phonetic L1 spelling system; a much reduced verb to be; no auxiliary verbs except modals; no strict syntax. And while they are excellent readers, Russian are typically unprepared for writing any sort of composition, perhaps surprisingly. And yet, they manage to overcome most of these obstacles with just a short preparation course. (By the way, I'm an IELTS examiner too...)
You say the gap is closing between Russia and China? I do not see that happening, to be honest. IELTS results for Russia include a huge number of candidates who do no preparation at all for the test, and still manage to pull off a six. I would be very, surprised, very, if this was true too for China. |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
You say the gap is closing between Russia and China? I do not see that happening, to be honest. IELTS results for Russia include a huge number of candidates who do no preparation at all for the test, and still manage to pull off a six. I would be very, surprised, very, if this was true too for China. |
You didn't answer my question about the difference that prep can have on AT performance. Ironically, the average unprepared native speaker might stand to benefit the most as the link I provided argues. For the academically inclined, much less so. Half a band? While Russia's still almost a band above China in AT performance and neither change seems significant, what's notable is that Russia's one of the few to see it's score stagnate:
Russia's AT score 2007 vs 2012: 6.48 vs 6.4 = -.08
China's AT scores 2007 vs 2012: 5.45 vs 5.6 = +0.15
But as with IELTS (GT), the gap is less significant for TOEFL scores, perhaps a greater focus for Chinese hoping to attend N.A. uni's. I don't know. But I'm sure you have your reservations regarding the reliability and validity of their (internet-based) methods given your experience and the discrepancy between TOEFL & IELTS (AT) results:
TOEFL iBT 2012--------R--S--W--L--TOTAL
Russian Federation... 20 21 22 21 84
China, People’s Rep...20 18 19 20 77
Korea, Republic of.... 21 21 20 22 84
Japan......................18 17 17 18 70
Vietnam...................19 18 19 21 77
Thailand...................18 19 19 20 76
Saudi Arabia..............12 15 18 15 60
France ......................22 22 22 22 88
BTW, what motivates Russians to take the IELTS (AT): west Euro or overseas uni admission, local employment prospects, emmigration, or foreign employment prospects? With all our comparison of AT scores, perhaps one reason for Russians to do so well on the AT is that unlike Asian countries, they don't have a single uni on the Top 100 list while Japan and Korea both have 5 and even China's got 2. At Queen's Uni in Canada in 2010, the only PhD student I knew of, half the masters students and even the dean were Chinese. While I'm sure there's a vast number of Asian's struggling with language in N.A unis (and maybe you'd argue the 'i' in iBT should stand for invalid), I'm sure you've noticed that an increasing number of the names in pure research are either Chinese or Indian. |
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