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PD & observations of CELTA tutors/trainers
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I have said, repeatedly, Celta centres DO turn down people if their English knowledge level is not up to snuff. That is tested for. And not just non-native speakers of English.

Cripes! See what I mean about people who just cannot seem to take on board basic info?
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

buravirgil wrote:
It's probably my fault. Your experience is anyone failing a CELTA training isn't fit to teach because the material is basic stuff. But in this thread, I thought John posted a trainer's response that was capricious and spurious.

If I read that correctly, the business of CELTA is having some quality control issues. Provoking many to say, yeah, it's lousy and its heyday as the bona fide is done because the growth of the ESL industry has produced competitors and a "standard" of what someone needs to know to teach ESL if they knew nothing about it before is...changing. Money-grabs, all around.

You were defending your experience that a CELTA cert as valuable and I was asking your opinion on what John posted upthread.

Does that make sense?


Not entirely, sorry. Which comment of Johnslat's are you referring to?
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buravirgil



Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for that clarification, John.

Swan? That Krashen hating hack? Let me lay out something here. The university system of the United States is a formidable magog of research because no matter what the topic, hundreds of institutions turn their departments to feverishly publish behind paywalls and skirt peer review, appropriate the work of women researchers and threaten their agency, refuse health coverage to adjunct professors to ask but one question: Will it make money?

But I don't like Swan anyway.
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buravirgil



Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sashadroogie wrote:
Not entirely, sorry. Which comment of Johnslat's are you referring to?
One that John explained I misinterpreted as a CELTA trainer. So, nevermind. Thanks for responding.
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buravirgil



Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sashadroogie wrote:
As I have said, repeatedly...
I understand that, but what did you say?
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VietCanada



Joined: 30 Nov 2010
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sashadroogie wrote:
Here's a little nugget from the inside for those with a chip on their shoulders regarding Celta trainers.

Sure, there is a range in experience and abilities in the trainers on any given course. How could there not be? But they should all meet a minimum standard, and are approved by Cambridge. Intake of trainees, on the other hand, does not have much of a filter at all. So long as a course applicant has the required level of English, most Celta centres have no option but to admit ANYONE onto the course. They cannot discriminate against an applicant because they are not suited to teaching or have no teaching knowledge: it is a pre-service course after all. They cannot discriminate based on intelligence either. All they can do is assess likelihood of finishing the course successfully, and advise applicants that they may be asked to withdraw.

The result is there can be some courses which are populated with the most cretinous collection of know-it-alls who steadfastly refuse to listen to the most basic feedback, and then mount some seriously high horses when they are told to withdraw, or fail outright, after a few weeks of the most unbelievably idiotic attempts at teaching language learners... anything.

Strangely enough, despite not having much of a clue about ELT, or even just basic professionalism, they then deflect all responsibilities to their long-suffering trainers and blame the trainers' lack of training and expertise. Clearly, it is ALL their fault.


You're referring to this post.

I took a course in Real Analysis at University. There were only 8 of us. For a third year pure math course that was not surprising. Two of the students were absolutely without doubt the dimmest people I had ever met at my University. I am still amazed at how thoroughly dense these guys were. How did they get this far? How did they even get into university? Of the others there was the typical guy acing everything and the rest did their best including me.

Real analysis is not my forte but it was required. I passed but it was hard work. Those guys were a total distraction. In the summer I got a letter from my university saying the class had been audited and failed. I was advised to re-take the course the following semester. The CELTA admin would just pocket the money? I can't believe you don't understand that this hurts the program's legitimacy. Make no wonder that so many complain, whether they pass or not.
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear VietCanada,

" . . . it seems convenient that CELTA can't turn anyone down . . ."

You are reading this thread, right?

"I am thinking of taking CELTA, but I have applied once before and got rejected .. and now I am thinking of applying again."

http://teachingenglishinaforeignland.blogspot.com/2012/04/5-reasons-to-do-celta.html

"After attempting to enroll in San Francisco, near where I lived, I was promptly rejected on the basis of two factors. One was a lower than average test score for their entrance exam (despite all my years of being a published author and teaching History and Science, apparently I wasn't schooled well enough in all the nuances of English Grammar) in order to do that well with their test; the other was overcrowding of the class."

http://teflchiangmai.blogspot.com/2011/08/considering-celta-personal-quest.html

"1. If a CELTA center accepts a lot of unsuitable candidates, this will be picked up by the Cambridge assessor who visits each course, and the situation will be investigated. In my experience, it is very rare for CELTA centers to knowingly accept unsuitable candidates.

2. I think you will find that pretty much all TESOL training centers, including those in colleges and universities, have a clause allowing them to cancel courses if they don't have enough participants or for other reasons. "

http://www.eslcafe.com/discussion/dz1/index.cgi?read=1408936778

"Relish:
Hi everybody

I am an non native student with masters in English Literature, Now I was looking for CELta but my application has been rejected saying that the answers I wrote in application form were not up to the standard. Can somebody hepl me as I m from literarture background."

http://www.englishforums.com/English/EnrollingInCelta/xhdzp/post.htm

Regards,
John
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sashadroogie wrote:
As I have said, repeatedly...
I understand that, but what did you say?

Very Happy

That something mysterious happens to the human brain once enrolled on a Celta course. All ability to process oral or written info shuts down. Only vast amounts of repetition from trainers can ever hope to overcome this massive learning handicap, and even then some trainees may never get past their own over-inflated opinions of how superb they are in a classroom. Even after they limp across the finish line and collect a bare minimum pass, awarded for reasons that no angry trainee ever enquires too deeply into, for fear of learning they might have almost failed.
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyway... The point is... That it is simply preposterous that Celta trainers' qualifications are being called into question by the very people who nearly failed the course, or by those here who have never taken one. The former usually fail or have to withdraw because they show no ability to implement any the principles of the input sessions. The latter because they know next to nothing about the course except what they have heard from bitchy potty-mouths.

Blame the trainers - of course! That makes perfect sense.
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buravirgil



Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everything I learned about the CELTA came from a manual downloaded from the Internet. This one guy? He took it to a printer's shop and had it bound.
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VietCanada



Joined: 30 Nov 2010
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sashadroogie wrote:
Anyway... The point is... That it is simply preposterous that Celta trainers' qualifications are being called into question by the very people who nearly failed the course, or by those here who have never taken one. The former usually fail or have to withdraw because they show no ability to implement any the principles of the input sessions. The latter because they know next to nothing about the course except what they have heard from bitchy potty-mouths.

Blame the trainers - of course! That makes perfect sense.


And this is all you need to know about CELTA. Don't you dare make a bad impression on the trainer.
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear VietCanada,

"Don't you dare make a bad impression on the trainer."

Probably not a good idea for any student, anywhere, on any teacher. Very Happy

Regards,
John
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nomad soul



Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It is simply preposterous that Celta trainers' qualifications are being called into question by the very people who nearly failed the course, or by those here who have never taken one. The former usually fail or have to withdraw because they show no ability to implement any the principles of the input sessions. The latter because they know next to nothing about the course except what they have heard from bitchy potty-mouths.

And the latter description certainly doesn't fit me---I have no personal opinion either way about the CELTA course nor the trainers. In fact, pointing blame and blasting the course delivery weren't my reason for starting this thread; there's enough of that already within these forums. CELTA is a topic that seems to still rub salt in the wounds of some people for months and years after they took the course.

As someone who has conducted in-service teacher training, I wanted to get an understanding of the backgrounds/qualifications that make up a CELTA tutor/trainer and whether continuous professional development was a requirement. I'd also posted the following: For those of you who took the CELTA course but weren't thrilled with the trainee-tutor dynamic, what would have improved that experience? This question wasn't about blame but about reflecting on that dynamic from an interpersonal communication perspective and what both parties---trainee and tutor/trainer---could have done to improve the experience. That is, to look at solutions that others considering taking the course or involved in the training can learn from. Ironically, this is a real situation we often face as teachers with our own students. Anyway, I'd hoped that particular question would have provided some positive food for thought.
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spiral78



Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread has devolved into an effort by people

1. who've never taken a CELTA
and/or
2. one furry remnant who took a substandard CTEFLA a decade and a half ago

to drive those of us who actually know something about the course mad.

I'm outta here. Off to train some more teachers. Generate more positive evaluations from new teachers - and from their students (actually track student evaluations of our teachers, by the way).
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spiral78



Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
As someone who has conducted in-service teacher training, I wanted to get an understanding of the backgrounds/qualifications that make up a CELTA tutor/trainer and whether continuous professional development was a requirement. I'd also posted the following: For those of you who took the CELTA course but weren't thrilled with the trainee-tutor dynamic, what would have improved that experience? This question wasn't about blame but about reflecting on that dynamic from an interpersonal communication perspective and what both parties---trainee and tutor/trainer---could have done to improve the experience. That is, to look at solutions that others considering taking the course or involved in the training can learn from. Ironically, this is a real situation we often face as teachers with our own students. Anyway, I'd hoped that particular question would have provided some positive food for thought.


This is fairly noble, would be useful, and it's unfortunate that the conversation can't remain on a more scholarly plane.

But it clearly can't - a dozen potentially useful threads relating to the CELTA have been hijacked and driven to wrack and ruin over the past years. Any thread with CELTA in its title will inevitably attract the bitter and barely-informed among us, unfortunately.
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