Job Discussion Forums

moonraven · Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 3094

Thanks, AT, for stating the politically and historically obvious--which is NOT obvious to many of the folks who frequent this board.

GrantRay's analogy is simply ludicrous: If someone hires you to kill someone in his family, and he pays you for it, according to HIS system you bear none of the guilt for the killing.

Apparently he missed the point of the author's referring to himself as an "economic hitman". Either that or he has the moral fibre of a jackal.

snielz · Joined: 05 Apr 2005 Posts: 165 Location: Buenos Aires

Asia Traveller,
Good answer - nicely simplified for online forum reading (of course we can do our own research). Way to inform without being demeaning or so f'ing judgemental.

moonraven · Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 3094

Did you learn anything from it?

Or was it just an excuse to sneak the f-word past the moderators, and try to get me in the process.

By the way, you won't.

Justin Trullinger · Posted: Mon May 09, 2005 10:14 pm Post subject:

Loansharking is illegal, basically.

As GrantRay pointed out in his credit card example- "you don't have to take it." But in many cases, where third world governmental lending is concerned, they do have to take it. There are many ways that pressure to "take it" can be applied, and most aren't nice. Using the credit card example, credit card issuers are governed by fairly strict laws in most of our countries, and many of the practices of the World Bank would be illegal on that scale. (There is no overseeing body that has power of international governmental lending.)

Second of all, if you are a "moron," and you take the $100,000 in the credit card example, there are still laws that govern how it can be collected. You can declare bankrupcy, you can arrange payments. You cannot, and this is the important point, you CANNOT be forced to starve to death. Collection of debts, in the first world credit card example, are restricted by certain minimums of humane conduct.

But in the third world, people starve every day as a result of inhumane debt collection on a national level. The IMF and the World Bank often require reductions in public service spending as part of their "payment packages." This may make financial sense, but frankly, it kills folks.

You can say that the corrupt leaders are responsible for taking the loans, and you'll get no argument from me. But the same standards for debt collection that we insist on in our first world havens should apply world wide. Killing people through debt collection is a practice for which those collecting the debts are responsible. It's called murder, and you wouldn't tolerate it at home.

Justin

PS I started writing this a while ago, then had to go teach, so it may not fit into the rythm...

AsiaTraveller · Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 12:12 am Post subject:

Justin, your rhythm is just fine!

GrantRay · Joined: 17 Aug 2004 Posts: 391 Location: Huaihua

Moonraven:

GrantRay · Joined: 17 Aug 2004 Posts: 391 Location: Huaihua

Moonraven:

ElNota · Joined: 28 Mar 2005 Posts: 123 Location: Buenos Aires

snielz · Joined: 05 Apr 2005 Posts: 165 Location: Buenos Aires

Justin Trullinger · Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 2:32 pm Post subject:

Some excellent thoughts flying around the forum today, guys. Thanks!

I know somebody else on this forum has said it, but to understand the historic legacy of colonialism, empirialism, and South America, I highly recommend "Las Venas Abiertas de America Latina." It's a highly readable, very insightful work.

I don't disagree with the idea that, as the problems we're talking about are here in Latin America, the solutions will have to be found, at least in part, here as well.

But if you look at the history of the continent, external opposition has brought down some of the strongest movements towards economic solidarity on this continent. Look at Salvador Allende, in Chile. (There was a good film on this period by Pablo Guzman.) Look at the economic embargo against Cuba. Look how many times Venezuela's legally elected president has had his legitimacy challenged.

A South American union is a heck of a good idea- (Gran Colombia all over again!) but you don't have to look far to see the forces who don't want it to happen. And they don�t fight fair.

Regards,
Justin

Justin Trullinger · Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 2:43 pm Post subject:

Just one more thought, before I go back to work...

Grant, you suggest that people would be dying of starvation but for the money coming in from international loans, or that the loans somehow can provide relief, however temporary, from poverty and starvation.

"Dying because your government won't accept loans they can't pay back, or dying because your government is paying back loans it can't afford?"

I�m not sure that the facts back up this hypothesis. Most third world countries actually can, and often do, produce enough food to feed their people. Then they export it to pay for the interest on their loans. Ethiopia was exporting grain all through their famous famine. Most of the countries in South America are, agriculturally, amongst the richest in the world. But their debt, and payment programs, have made sure that their people don't see the benefits of their richness.

It isn't the "poverty" of certain countries. It's the system that is at fault.

Regards,

Justin

ElNota · Joined: 28 Mar 2005 Posts: 123 Location: Buenos Aires