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Aristotle
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1388
Location: Taiwan
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 Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:24 am Post subject: |
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I live on Taiwan and so do you. We have to take the first step and do our part as residents on this island governed by criminals and attempt to make a change for ourselves and our students. As teachers we are obligated to teach our students how to become better people and make our home a better place.
It is clear that the system in place on Taiwan is a failure in many regards and that the gains made on the economic side have not transcended to other sectors of Taiwan's society. They best way for that to happen is through education.
That is where we come in.
Corruption Fighters� Tool Kit Special Edition 2004 Teaching Integrity to Youth
If we as teachers would do our job, we could have a tremendous impact on this island. Taiwan has amazing potential but that potential will never be realized under the current mass mis-management and corruption that permeates all levels of Taiwanese society under the ROC (Republic of Criminals).
Last edited by Aristotle on Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:50 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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| Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:25 am Post subject: |
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| Are you in Taipei? |
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Aristotle
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1388
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:37 am Post subject: |
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I am on Taiwan, the same as you.
It's an island, not a city. What happens in one part effects the other.
Living in Taipei with the 4 million other Chinese who have placed themselves at the top of the class structure does not justify the willingness of many non ROC teachers to ignore the 19 million other people, a short drive away that are forced to live in a society governed by criminals and oppression at our expense.
Even in Taipei the non Chinese population faces extreme segregation and discrimination at the hands of their Chinese overlords through the mechanism of oppression called the ROC.
Good luck!
A.
Last edited by Aristotle on Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:53 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Pop Fly
Joined: 15 Feb 2003
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| I have just made 3 separate reports to the moderators about Aristotle's continuous slander of Taiwan. This website and these forums are here to help people who want to live here. Aristotle's not helping but hurting our business. He is taking money from your pocket and food from your children's plates. Please report anything that makes you uncomfortable to the mods and see if we can actually effect a positive change around here. |
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Aristotle
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1388
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:55 am Post subject: |
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Even in Taipei the non Chinese population faces extreme segregation and discrimination at the hands of their Chinese overlords through the mechanism of oppression called the ROC.
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Step on a few toes there, did I?
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Aristotle's not helping but hurting our business. He is taking money from your pocket and food from your children's plates. Please report anything that makes you uncomfortable to the mods and see if we can actually effect a positive change around here.
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My sincere apologies to the ROC government mandated Chinese school administrators. The above comments were not directed specifically at these people but the entire system of corruption and oppression of which we all must participate in, if we wish to live on Taiwan.
Good luck!
A. |
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Pop Fly
Joined: 15 Feb 2003
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:05 am Post subject: |
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| Henry_Cowell wrote: |
| "Positive change," indeed. I too have reported Artistotle's willfully bad citizenship (to put it mildly) to the mods. But perhaps he is one of those members who is actually favoured and protected here? |
Well. if enough of us report it, I feel they will have to listen. He's been banned from other forums. In fact, a recent amnesty for banned members at Forumosa did not include him. What does that say?
Send him packing to tealit. He and tealit deserve each other.
Come on mods. Do the right thing. Please.
I am tired of following him around the forum rebutting his paranoia. Please rid us of him today. |
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Chris Smith
Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 86
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| Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:20 am Post subject: |
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Even in Taipei the non Chinese population faces extreme segregation and discrimination at the hands of their Chinese overlords through the mechanism of oppression called the ROC.
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The problem here, Aristotle, is that this is just hyperbole. You are sounding like a TV evangelist, and this doesn't help your cause at all.
You would be much better giving personal examples and explaining your case when people ask you about it. Real communication will help you if you really have a cause to fight.
Chris |
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Aristotle
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1388
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:48 am Post subject: |
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If you need to talk to real people who have suffered at the hands of their Chinese overlords, just go the nearest Catholic Church on Sunday. Talk to any one of the thousands of migrant workers there.
You can even read personal messages from other English teachers over the previous few years.
Dave's ESl Cafe Job Information Journal!
If you need more info send us an email
[email protected]
I thought we were communicating?
If you get distracted by the cronies, can't say I blame you take a little sight seeing trip and take some pictures.
Try going into any factory or industrial zone and talk to the non Chinese workers there. Chances are the local police will arrest you.
Or you can do as many have done by playing along in the "Status Quo" Put on your blinders and do your best to ignore the injustices going on around you. Try hard to believe that this is the way it is supposed to be. Ignore the needs of your students and maintain the hegemony of the corrupt and oppressive society that is modern Taiwan.
The choice is yours, we all have to make it and live with it, on a daily basis.
Good luck!
A. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:17 am Post subject: |
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For the record I do not want to see Aristotle banned from this forum. I would however like to see his posts given greater scrutiny.
If it�s not new information � his post should be deleted.
If it doesn�t offer any information but is merely aimed as an insult � his post should be deleted.
If he raises issues as being fact, but fails to explain these � his post should be deleted.
If he posts stuff here that is really irrelevant to foreign teachers � his posts should be deleted.
As we all know, if the above were done, then the number of posts from Aristotle would be reduced to almost zero, but his right to continue to post on the board would be maintained. This way he can�t complain about oppression and is still able to argue his views on Taiwan, but there would be more emphasis on him to make these views more honest than what they are now.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| That may be true but would this forum be providing the service it was designed to offer if it was entirely controlled by ROC cronies who bashed every person who did not agree with what they would really like Taiwan to be (not what it is). |
Well if we are going to be true to the purpose of this forum then the majority of your posts have no place here. This is not a forum for �Human Rights in Taiwan� nor is it a forum for �Conspiracy Theories about Taiwan�. It is a board for ESL in Taiwan and issues related to teachers. Much of what you post from other sources has only a tenuous if any link to foreign teachers in Taiwan as quite honestly we are not affected on a day to day basis by what you claim as being islandwide corruption. It just does not touch legal foreign teachers in a way that justifies the emphasis that you place on this issue. It may have affected illegal teachers such as yourself and the teachers that you claim to represent, but it quite simply doesn�t affect others to any degree.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| This forum covers all of Taiwan not just Taipei where you and many others live. While I will agree with you that the capital city of the occupational government does have it good points, the rest of Taiwan still remain the ROC (Republic of Criminals). |
So by your own admission then, what you claim about Taiwan should more correctly be headed with �everywhere outside of Taipei�. But even that would not be true. So you really need to clarify more, the problem being that there is no one area that has more problems than anywhere else. Problems occur in all cities in Taiwan from to time to time, just as they occur in all cities of the world from time to time. That�s life. This is why so many people see your claims against Taiwan being so invalid. Now you seem to even admit that yourself.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| I might suggest that you attempt to be a little more supportive of your fellow non Chinese teachers and migrants in general. |
How does your regurgitation of negative points raised by the media help people?
This is something that I would like an answer to as it isn�t clear. You only comment on the negative. That is not information. That is propaganda. How are you helping people by dispensing propaganda?
| Aristotle wrote: |
| That slave revolt last week in the South could easily spread island wide (meaning your street in Taipei) |
I think that it is in very bad taste to refer to our blue collar foreign brethren as �slaves�. They work hard and earn little in our eyes, but they do choose to come here because working in Taiwan offers them better opportunities than back home, but they are most certainly not slaves.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| I live on Taiwan and so do you. |
Quite clearly Aristotle does not live in Taiwan.
Have a look at his posts. He NEVER posts of personal experiences, nor does he post of the personal experiences of others.
His posts only contain information that is on the internet. This is why he relies so heavily on the online versions of the local newspapers for his quotes. The interesting thing is that he often misses parts of these real newspapers that are not contained on the online versions. His quotes and comments all come from the online versions only.
Finally, from comments he has made over the years it has become clear that he couldn�t possibly be here now as his comments were just plain wrong. I refer to the presidential election fiasco as well a comment he made about a typhoon at one stage. There have been a number of times that he has posted stuff as being fact as it was presented in the media, but this turned out to be incorrect and he would have known this if he was in Taiwan or even knew someone in Taiwan.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| We have to take the first step and do our part as residents on this island governed by criminals and attempt to make a change for ourselves and our students. As teachers we are obligated to teach our students how to become better people and make our home a better place. |
And how do your posts achieve this? Surely if we are to educate then we need to discuss both sides of the case and refrain from name calling. You do neither. We also need to concentrate on facts rather than opinion. You don�t do this either. And finally we need to discuss the issue raised with inquisitive minds. Once again you don�t do this.
Aristotle you are not an educator. You are a dictator. Unfortunately for you very, very few people listen to the propaganda you spread and that is a good thing. The situation facing foreign teachers in Taiwan has improved incredibly over the years and this is all thanks to the people who live here, not to critics from afar like yourself.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| It is clear that the system in place on Taiwan is a failure in many regards and that the gains made on the economic side have not transcended to other sectors of Taiwan's society. |
I disagree.
Show us sources of where things pertaining to foreign teachers in Taiwan are on the decrease. The fact is that conditions have improved greatly over the years not decreased.
You stole that �toolkit� from someone else. How exactly does it apply to foreign teachers in Taiwan? Please explain the applicability for me.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| It's an island, not a city. What happens in one part effects the other. |
Earlier in this thread you conceded that Taipei, Taiwan�s capital and most populated city was good and relatively free from the problems that you claim relate to the whole of Taiwan. Now you suggest that what happens in one city affects the others. So by this logic, Taipei, as the biggest, most powerful, and most populated city, must affect the rest of Taiwan. As Taipei is the best city by your own admission, then what must be filtering down is positive. Yes, I would agree with you on that Aristotle. Is Taiwan perfect � no. Is it improving � yes.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| If you need to talk to real people who have suffered at the hands of their Chinese overlords, just go the nearest Catholic Church on Sunday. Talk to any one of the thousands of migrant workers there. |
This refers to foreign blue collar workers. As we have already established, the situation facing foreign teachers in Taiwan is far different from the situation facing foreign blue collar workers. This is why Aristotle gets it so wrong so often. He fudges the line and you just can�t do this as it is misrepresentative of the real situation here.
There are message boards that discuss foreign blue collar worker issues. This however, is not one of them. I am not suggesting that these issues have no place on this forum. They do, but discussion of these issues should be minimal and clearly separated from comments about foreign teachers. It is dangerous to do what Aristotle does in mixing these together as it leads to misinformation as evidenced by the recent posts by Teacha, a self confessed fan of Aristotle�s posts, and probably one of the most misinformed people who has posted on this forum for a long time.
Yes you can but it is worth bearing in mind that posts made on the information journal here at Daves are unmoderated, free from the questioning that takes place on the forum, and almost entirely negative in nature. That is not because most experiences are negative, but merely due to human nature in that these people want to voice their negative more than their positive experiences.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| Try going into any factory or industrial zone and talk to the non Chinese workers there. |
That�s a good idea.
I would encourage a visit to these places too. I think that if every new foreign teacher to Taiwan got an eyeful of the conditions that foreign blue collar workers live and work under, then the number of complaints about work conditions from foreign teachers would drop to almost zero. Teachers would soon realize that complaints about varying student levels in a class, no paid typhoon days, too many or too few hours etc, are all trivial when compared to the conditions that some people need to work under. Once teachers started to compare what they have here with what other people have here, rather than comparing what they don�t have here to what they did have back home, I am confident that even the most unhappy of foreign teachers in Taiwan would soon realize how happy and lucky they really are.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| Chances are the local police will arrest you. |
That�s crap. You would not get arrested for visiting foreign blue collar workers. Of course you couldn�t trespass on private property to do so without the appropriate permission, but you could certainly stand outside the gate and chat to the workers when they come out.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| Or you can do as many have done by playing along in the "Status Quo" Put on your blinders and do your best to ignore the injustices going on around you. Try hard to believe that this is the way it is supposed to be. Ignore the needs of your students and maintain the hegemony of the corrupt and oppressive society that is modern Taiwan. |
Once again Aristotle is confusing the issues facing foreign teachers with the issues facing Taiwan�s foreign blue collar workers. |
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Chris Smith
Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 86
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 5:28 am Post subject: |
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Couldn't acces this site on Sunday, but this was my response to Aristotle's last post:
Aristotle,
I know well that I can talk to people in Taiwan. There are migrant workers working on a new road section near where I live. They are pretty nice people and with very good English.
My point is about your communication. I know there are injustices in Taiwan. There are also injustices in my country. If you ask the family of Jean Charles de Menezes who was brutally killed by plain clothes police in London, I'm sure they feel they have been treated unjustly in a variety of ways.
If you look for injustice you will certainly find it... in every country.
If you can bring your own personal experiences to this forum you will really be making your point. By doing so, you may also encourage other people with first hand experiences to share. |
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JimDunlop2
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 2286
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:42 am Post subject: |
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As a mod, I'm just going to step in here and make a couple quick comments.
In the past day or so, I've been dealing with both Aristotle and Pop Fly issues up the wazoo.... I suppose if it weren't for these two jokers, the mods would get pretty bored. Nonetheless, here's where it's at, guys.
Anyone with avatars and signatures that do nothing more than insult another user will be sent a PM requesting them to change it. If not, Dave has the ability to disable that feature in your profile.
A quick review of the site rules.....
all posts made to these forums express the views and opinions of the author and not the administrators, moderators or webmaster (except for posts by these people) and hence will not be held liable.
You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-orientated or any other material that may violate any applicable laws.
Ergo..... You are perfectly free to disagree with what others say, and issue rebuttals as you see fit. If it starts to get personal, the mods will step in. Same thing if it gets vulgar, hateful or obscene, etc...
If Aristotle posts something negative or false, as long as it can't be construed as being slanderous, he is free to do so.
Furthermore, when things start to go around in circles and nothing new is being offered to the thread, that's when a mod is likely going to lock the thing.
Let me respond to Clark Griswald:
| Quote: |
| For the record I do not want to see Aristotle banned from this forum. I would however like to see his posts given greater scrutiny. |
Me neither. But that doesn't make me pro-Aristotle... Just realize that mods can't always be there to scrutinize, nor will they scrutinize only him. Remember that thing about the glass houses?
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| If it�s not new information � his post should be deleted. |
Not necessarily, but if more people continue with providing "no information" then I can pretty much guarantee that the thread will get locked.
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| If it doesn�t offer any information but is merely aimed as an insult � his post should be deleted. |
Absolutely. That goes for anyone. If something is meant merely as an insult, please send a report to the mods explaining the problem...
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| If he raises issues as being fact, but fails to explain these � his post should be deleted. |
I don't know how many mods actually live in Taiwan. I don't. I try to fulfill my moderation duties as well as I can, even with the handicap of not always knowing what the FACTS are.... Your best bet is to refute an arguement directly on the thread, citing any references you may have to establish credibility. Then, failing that, let the mods know if things have degenerated into a he said/she said match.
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If he posts stuff here that is really irrelevant to foreign teachers � his posts should be deleted. |
Agreed BUT... This IS a teaching forum, so most of the content should be about that topic. However, since the China thread is the only one privileged enough to have an "Off-topic" section, some level of non-teaching stuff gets tolerated on the other forums. If a new topic gets posted that is obviously flame-bait or trolling, let the mods know so we can deal with it before it hits the 10-page mark...
Incidentally, this thread s about THIS |---| close to getting locked.
Hope that clears a few things up.
JD
Last edited by JimDunlop2 on Mon Sep 05, 2005 5:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Pop Fly
Joined: 15 Feb 2003
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| JimDunlop2 wrote: |
| I don't know how many mods actually live in China. I don't. |
Neither do we. This is the Taiwan thread. 
| Quote: |
| However, since the China thread is the only one privileged enough to have an "Off-topic" section.... |
Are you trying to bring us this l-l much closer to being locked? Please try to not only stay on topic, but in the right forum. This isn't China......yet. |
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stillnosheep
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 2068
Location: eslcafe
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Pop Fly wrote: |
| I have just made 3 separate reports to the moderators about Aristotle's continuous slander of Taiwan. Aristotle's not helping but hurting our business. He is taking money from your pocket and food from your children's plates. |
One cannot slander a country, (or region  ), only a person. The word that you are searching for is 'criticise'.
Criticism is admirable as long as it is justified.
Your choice of such emotive language in response to Aristotle's posts serves only as ammunition with which you shoot yourself in the foot. If Asistotle's criticisms were, indeed, to restrict the supply of EFL teachers to Taiwan there then the value, and thus salaries of those EFL teachers in Taiwan, would rise, not fall.
If you care so much about increasing your salary level you should be backing Aristotle in his determination to bring to the surface acpects of life in Taiwan oft' swept under the carpet. |
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JimDunlop2
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 2286
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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Apologies. I've been dealing with issues in all these forums, and this may as well be China Off-topic... Sure sounds like the fights going on in there, anyway.
Yes, I meant to say Taiwan -- thanks for pointing out my error.
Nonetheless, if you look beyond my goof-up, You know what I'm getting at... I think my point still stands...
N'est ce pas?
P.S. I've edited my last post. |
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Pop Fly
Joined: 15 Feb 2003
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:57 am Post subject: |
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| stillnosheep wrote: |
| Pop Fly wrote: |
| I have just made 3 separate reports to the moderators about Aristotle's continuous slander of Taiwan. Aristotle's not helping but hurting our business. He is taking money from your pocket and food from your children's plates. |
One cannot slander a country, (or region ), only a person. The word that you are searching for is 'criticise'.
Criticism is admirable as long as it is justified.
Your choice of such emotive language in response to Aristotle's posts serves only as ammunition with which you shoot yourself in the foot. If Asistotle's criticisms were, indeed, to restrict the supply of EFL teachers to Taiwan there then the value, and thus salaries of those EFL teachers in Taiwan, would rise, not fall.
If you care so much about increasing your salary level you should be backing Aristotle in his determination to bring to the surface acpects of life in Taiwan oft' swept under the carpet. |
Even though you are indulging in semantics with he first part of your post, the latter section does point out a flaw in my logic. By way of explanation, I just felt that his continued character asassinition (sp) would result in further dampening local opinion of westerners to the point where it would effect the ESL market.
Additionally, his scare tactics would keep people from coming to Taiwan and I figured this would somehow result in what I posted.
You have set me straight. Thank You. Go Aristotle Go! |
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