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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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 Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 9:56 am Post subject: |
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gregor you encouraging all those new boys and girls to become criminals - what a good start they will have in China - but heck if it dont happen in your branch who cares  |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:20 am Post subject: |
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Ian, what does your school say about the fact that you get paid via a Hong Kong bank account? Considering that you live in Shanghai and earn RMB, it certainly would have been one of my first questions when I started working there. Maybe you could ask them and let us know what they say?
| IanMWashburn wrote: |
| And finally, does anyone care to conjecture as to why EF goes through all of this convolution in managing these specific contractual and payment issues? |
I would think that upwards of 90% of privately run language mills employ some teachers at some stage on L or F visas. Some then convert these into Z visas, but the majority don't. Even those that provide foreign teachers with Z visas are probably a bit iffy as the visas are most likely provided through other employers and by stating a different profession.
None of the above is acceptable and at the end of the day the foreign teacher risks being deported for working illegally whether he or she did so knowingly or not, but as others have pointed out it is the norm here in China and anyone coming to China does need to accept that things are done differently here.
There are positions that are entirely legal from start to finish and to my knowledge most of these offer RMB3,000-4,000 per month and are within public institutions sometimes in the boondocks. There are very few of these positions in cities such as Shanghai, so in choosing to live in a city with such a vibe you are also choosing to live in a city that probably does not bear scratching below the surface.
Finally on this matter I would like to ask has any teacher here ever been deported or fined for working at an EF school 'illegally'?
Vikdk, I don't really see your point and I don't agree with your dogged attacks on Gregor. Gregor has stated upfront his relationship to EF. He has also offered the good and the bad about EF as he sees it. He has not gone out of his way to promote jobs at his school here, nor has he overstated what EF has to offer. There are some very good attributes of EF schools that are very attractive to some applicants, while the thought of working for a chain school like EF makes the stomachs of other people churn. Each to his own!
| vikdk wrote: |
| � Pay bellow 100/hour |
You don't need to yell vikdk 
Pay of RMB75-100 an hour is pretty respectable in my opinion provided that you get a good number of hours. Factoring in the provision of training, support, curriculum, materials, reasonable classrooms, convenient locations etc. etc. and I think that it becomes apparent that the deal is not that bad pay and condition wise. Some teachers work for RMB30 an hour in country schools with the bare minimum of facilities and to many EF would sound like quite a comfortable option.
Besides all of this the pay rate is stated in the contract so if you don't agree to it then don't sign up there. It is not as if they stiff you like some schools do.
| vikdk wrote: |
| � Hours well above average � stating that you may have to teach 39 periods of 45 min/week (try asking what a qualified teacher would say to that with regard to preparation time for those kind of hours) |
Again, this is stated in the contract so if these sorts of hours are not to your taste then don't take them. I probably wouldn't work for an EF as I wouldn't be keen on these hours myself but I respect the rights of others to make their own decisions in this regard.
| vikdk wrote: |
| � Evening and weekend work |
Once again, this is stated in the contract I assume and is therefore not something that you get stuck with after the fact like some schools. If you don't like the idea of this type or work then go and work at a kindy or public school. There are plenty of choices available.
| vikdk wrote: |
| � Shared accommodation |
Again I suspect that you know this upfront and again I would suggest that you not take the job if you don't like the idea. I wouldn't like it myself but I know for a fact that the type of teacher that schools like EF tend to attract appreciate share accomodation as it is easier for them to settle in. We are often talking about recent college grads on their first sojourn abroad and living with like minded individuals can really make the stay for more enjoyable at first.
| vikdk wrote: |
| � A confidentiality clause that according to EF is still in place after a contract has been terminated |
This clause is not too much different to the expectations of many schools and employers in general. The only difference is that EF print it in black and white to ensure that there are no misunderstanding and I think that we should give them full credit for this. If you actually have a read of the confidentiality information it covers stuff such as using EF materials outside of the school and stealing students. Pretty normal expectations of any school whether they say so upfront or not.
| vikdk wrote: |
| � Openly stating that an FT may be illegally employed on an F visa |
I won't excuse this, but I will put it in perspective by stating that upward of 90% of private language mills probably hire foreign teachers illegally on L or F visas at some stage or another. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:42 am Post subject: |
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A clark question
| Quote: |
| Finally on this matter I would like to ask has any teacher here ever been deported or fined for working at an EF school 'illegally'? |
while were asking questions we might as well tackle this one - I would like to ask has anybody ever seen a company - and this isn't on a shady sub-branch website, but on the real no1 genuine EF website - say that you may be illegally employed, while at the same time stating that you will be sacked for breaking the Chinese law 
come on clark just come out with it - EF, of course with many others, are a dodgy show. How can you let them get away with this, Im sure if it was some small pea- shooter outfit you'd be after their blood. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
| [/b] come on clark just come out with it - EF, of course with many others, are a dodgy show. How can you let them get away with this, Im sure if it was some small pea- shooter outfit you'd be after their blood. |
I think that this is a fair comment vikdk considering my activities in providing information about schools in China. It is not a case of letting them get away with it, but more of trying to understand what the best course of action is in the interests of teachers.
Bitching and moaning about it on message boards is unlikely to be the solution, nor is putting our heads in the sand and pretending that it is all okay.
Considering that many schools do what EF are doing it would be unfair and self-defeating to single out EF for sanctions over this as it would send a message to avoid EF which may send teachers to less reputable schools.
This is why I would like to know if any teacher has ever experienced complications legally as a result of the way that EF handles it's affairs. If no teacher has ever been punished for his or her employment status at EF then I am of the impression that getting the word out about the fact that:
a) it is illegal to earn a salary in China on an 'F' visa
b) you can only legally work for the employer named on your employment certifications
might be the best course of action.
This way teachers considering positions at some EF schools can see that these schools act in breach of the above and should probably best be avoided, while others in the chain may do things 100% legitimately. It is pointless to keep talking about EF as a whole. We need to talk about EF on the individual school level if we really want to help teachers.
What I am most concerned about is, is there a choice? I get the distinct impression that what EF does is in fact just the way things are done and that probably most other schools do this too. So assuming that a teacher does avoid EF because of concerns with these practices then where can these teachers go. Sure there is an argument that the drought of teachers resulting from this may result in changes in the system, but I doubt it. There would always be teachers willing to take the positions and the schools will continue operating in the way that they are now.
You seem very interested in the whole subject of EF vikdk. Maybe you could give us all your suggestion about a solution to this problem? |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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a clark quote
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| Considering that many schools do what EF are doing it would be unfair and self-defeating to single out EF for sanctions over this as it would send a message to avoid EF which may send teachers to less reputable schools. |
Under what criteria do you label schools less reputable than EF?
look at EF's record -
� Pay bellow 100/hour
� Hours well above average � stating that you may have to teach 39 periods of 45 min/week (try asking what a qualified teacher would say to that with regard to preparation time for those kind of hours)
� Evening and weekend work
� Shared accommodation
� A confidentiality clause that according to EF is still in place after a contract has been terminated
� Openly stating that an FT may be illegally employed on an F visa
� Gross hypocrisy � since on the side http://www.englishfirst.com/teacherinfo/china_positions/Code_of_Conduct.doc EF states the following �
Quote:
Quote:
Failure to maintain the following standards will be deemed as gross misconduct and will result in immediate dismissal:
(Among the various points we find this)
Never break the law
Those schools have to be pretty bad to beat that
I know I'm repetative but man what has a company got to do to be labled dodgy??? |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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My solution to these problems accept standards that can help to raise FT standards, and push towards making this a professional market, which is inhabited by professional employers and employees.
I would not recommend to the newbie any school, which couldn't provide-
1. 20 contact hours/week max
2. Two consecutive days/week free
3. No more than 10 traveling hours/week
4. 75/hour in a school or college selling yours lessons privately (remember state institutions often use us for extra revenue by making our lessons pay classes) 100/hour overtime.
5. Single accommodation
6. Return fares and med insurance for the years contract
7. A guarantee that a z visa can be obtained
8. A copy of an agreed contract that could be signed before you arrived in China - we all know how vulnerable we are when we have to sign stuff here
Leave the working on F visa lark for the vets Clark - after all weren�t you a newbie once??? Can't you remember that nasty feeling coming out here not knowing the ropes, getting used to new job and culture, missing home while not even having the security of a legal job? |
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Gregor
Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 842
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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This post is not for vikdk because he is evidently incapable of reading. But anyone else out there who may be interested:
EF contracts are sent to candidates free of charge, for their perusal, before deciding whether or not to work there.
Everything is negotiable - EVERYTHING, always. That's just generally true. If you are good and you want private accommodations (even the shared flats have private bedrooms, anyway - it's not like they live in dorms), a higher salary, whatever, convince the hiring manager to accept this and it's written into the contract.
The hours are 87 a month for the salary. That amounts to about 20.08 hours per week. I don't know where vikdk gets this 39 periods of 45 minutes. That's simply not true (if you divide the 20+ hours in the EF contract into 45-minute periods, you get a little bit over 26 periods).
The base, starting salary for newbie teachers is 5000 RMB/month - WELL enough to live on. If the teacher has a full workload, that amounts to about 57 and a half RMB per hour. This is a salary, though, and includes paid vacations, full salary even in non-busy times, health and travel insurance (it covered my surgery AND 6 weeks off work for recuperation last year), taxi fares when travel is required to an off-site class, and full flight reimbursement. AND, this salary goes up to 5500/month after three months and then 6000/month for the last half year.
Overtime (that is, anything over the 87 hours a month) is paid at a MINIMUM of 100 RMB/hour.
What's to complain about? It's a decent package. The contract IS signed before the teacher arrives. Hell, vikdk's minimum requirement for a newbie teacher is more than met by EF. What he's complaining about I have no idea.
We've been over (and over and over) the legalities of working with different visas. Anyone who doesn't want to risk it at all, g ahead and try to get the work visa sorted out before you come to China, and good luck to you (this is for working at EF or anywhere else). If you can do it, then Bob's yer uncle.
| Quote: |
| 3. No more than 10 traveling hours/week |
WHAT??? Where do you think our teachers WORK?? TEN hours travel time per week? Hell's bells, man, even making that just two hours a day over a five day week, that would put you in the jurisdiction of a completely different EF school! Who has to do anywhere NEAR that much travel for classes?
The only thing I can't really comment on is this:
| Quote: |
| 4. 75/hour in a school or college selling yours lessons privately (remember state institutions often use us for extra revenue by making our lessons pay classes) 100/hour overtime. |
That's because I have no idea what it means. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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Ohhhhhhhh I gregor my dear ol' friend have I been picking on you - well here's a bit more
to be found on http://www.englishfirst.com/teacherinfo/recruitment/country/China_Teacher_Factsheet.doc�
| Quote: |
| Contracts are for 40-hours per week, including an average 30 academic hours of teaching (20 real hours). One academic hour is forty minutes plus a five-minute break. Hours of work will mirror those of similar local schools and will almost certainly involve working in the morning and in the evening as well as the weekends with two days off (typically Monday/Tuesday or Thursday/Friday). During the summer and winter peak periods teachers receive one day a week off. In peak periods, teachers can be asked to work up to 39academic hours (26 real hours) of teaching |
30 academic hours in my book = 30 contact hours or 30 periods (a contact hour being 40 mins) - now that doesn't look so appetizing does it 
Wow see those 39 academic hours mentioned - Greg must have missed them - by the way EF use the term hour - sorry if I misled you gregor just using the EF lingo 
75/hour - you don�t understand that, well you must be a newbie - cause not many ppl who have been here more than a year is interested in less than 100/hour - but me thinks ol' Greg is earning more than this 
75RMB per contact hour (or academic hour or whatever you want to call it) if you are in China you can easily get the 100 in most big cities - but it's not so easy to get when applying from outside. 100 rmb per hour over the 20 is a must - overtime.
Even without this overtime you should expect EF to pay - 75x30x4=9000/month
but EF only give 6000 max - methinks anybody working there is being shortchanged - but then greg justifies wages by what he thinks you can live on - not what the market can easily provide. By the way if you do those 30 contact hours a week with EF in the first six months you'll get a whacking 45/hour going up 5 yes 5 rmb an hour in the next 6 months - now doesn't that make your mouth water 
remember anyone negotiating pay/hour that contact hours (EF's academic hour) are between 40 and 45 mins - safest way to work out your wages here otherwise your opened to companies like EF ripping you off
By the way if you divide what EF will pay you over 40 hours (the 40 hours they talk about having you for in their info blurb) - man were talking about slavery Remember they�re also going to use you in all sorts of embarrassing sales pitches where you have to try to get new custom -extra hours -
| Quote: |
| Training centres hold regular social and marketing activities for the students, which you will be expected to participate in. Some examples are open houses, parties, educational booths at fairs and English competitions. Teachers will also get the chance to participate and lead some skills-sharing seminars with native English-speaking and non-native English speaking colleagues. |
just ask the vets what these gigs are like take a banana you'll feel like a monkey
Well if theirs not so much traveling to do done fine - EF you meet that standard - but what about single accommodation - what about legal visas
And as trusty ol' gregor says you can negotiate that contract back home - so go for it - the skies the limit - but methinks that sky isn't quite so high in the happy land of EF |
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Gregor
Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 842
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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vikdk...
YOU'RE RIGHT!
I've been a fool! I've been a slave! I resign!
Man.
You are out of your mind.
But OK. Newbies, pay me no attention. I've only been working as a teacher, for various schools, for less than ten years, in various countries and various capacities. Quite a few of those years were for various EFs, in China and in Indonesia, true, but only because those were the best jobs available at the time.
So does that make me an idiot? vikdk would say so, I suppose. Y'all decide for yourselves (or go ahead and believe vikdk - that's fine). I rest my case, though. This thread has become tiresome. vikdk would say that this makes him the winner. That's perfectly fine by me. But if any of you have read through this thread...GET A LIFE!
Seriously, if anyone has actually waded through all of this muck, then you have plenty of unsubstantiated non-information from BOTH of us (because vikdk doesn't work for ANY EF and I can do very little better - I only work for one of them).
Now you can believe vikdk or else you can find out for yourself. If you trust this forum as your sole source of information, then please do NOT apply to EF - they MAY take you (the worst thing I have yet to admit about the EF system). Otherwise, you now have plenty of places to look for more information, and plenty of questions to ask to get you on the right track.
Clark, Rog, anyone else who wants to call vikdk out for his silliness, I suggest (as I have before) that you let it go (as I said before that I would do). vikdk is going to go round in circles until he WINS, because he's about seven years old, so just let him win.
If anyone has a SERIOUS question about working for EF, feel free to send me a PM. I'll be happy to discuss it. I don't expect to get any, except maybe from vikdk, but if you are really interested, feel free. I am always happy to help.
But I am no longer happy to discuss it on this silly thread. Get MY take, and if you are really interested, send vikdk a PM and tell him what I said and see how he responds. If you really care, which you do not. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:20 am Post subject: |
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so far folks:
Gregor - waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah why you pickin on me - everything is peachy peachy in dalian - we don't do none of that illegal stuff, and i can't help what EF write on their website 
clark -well of course they're dodgy - but so is everbody else - an their big so we better be nice to them and dust them under the carpet:?
Roger - well Vik you're right about that illegal stuff - but it's you who is saying it, FT bad boy number 1 - shiiite you really can become bullet proof here 
Most convincing out of this lot - Roger by a million miles |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 4:43 am Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
Roger don't shoot me down in flames - I have gone through a reincarnation - I am now an FT do-gooder
how can you defend EF when-
� Pay bellow 100/hour
� Hours well above average � stating that you may have to teach 39 periods of 45 min/week (try asking what a qualified teacher would say to that with regard to preparation time for those kind of hours)
� Evening and weekend work
� Shared accommodation
� A confidentiality clause that according to EF is still in place after a contract has been terminated
� Openly stating that an FT may be illegally employed on an F visa
� Gross hypocrisy � since on the side |
The flame war cease with immediate effect, vikdk! I laud your efforts at integrating into civilised society.
Nevertheless, I remain somewhat puzzled if not at loggerheads with you! The reasons are the quotes above.
Let me explain:
- Pay below RMB 100? What's the issue? That's standard! Most employers pay well below RMB 100 per contact hour. Apart from this fact, you must also bear in mind that your hourlyw age goes up significantly if you factor in all those overheads you generate for your employer! I won't go into details here! As for 50 kuai an hour wages, how much do you think an 5000 a month job amounts to? 80 to 90 hours for that amount is quite common! Yes, you can get better, but...
- YOur observation that you have to work 40 hours a week: maybe you know an EF branch where this is true; most EFs that I know don't require you to teach more than 30 hours a week, often less than that!
There is, however, a snag: you have to spend office hours in the EF premises! And yes, I consider this to be unattractive and undesirable, especially if my abode is a long bus trip from the EF.
BUt the rationale of EF is compelling: they have a right to ensure that you do not moonlight! Every employer has the right to that. Few make sure you are not clocking in at another school - but some reserve pretty draconian consequences if they catch an errant teacher! Some allow their FTs to make extra money. In principle it is not allowed (check out the legal provisions).
Think of your Chinese colleagues: not only do they make considerably less than you do (probably), they also have to attend regular and not-so regular meetings! These meetings are not remunerated work time, but they are part and parcel of any teacher's job!
I won't go into your other observations - shared accommodation - for obvious reasons! I personally feel FTs are a lot more fickle in these aspects than Chinese are (I am not a fan of co-habitation either); I guess it's a question of finances rather than anything else.
But I am at odds with you over the confidentiality issue: any PROFESSIONAL business in the West has such clauses for their more senior staff; the fact that no CHinese school inserts such clauses doesn't disqualify EF but rather disqualifies Chinese competitors. How would you as a principal feel if someone else poached your best teachers? EF are a foreign brand-name and as such specially vulnerable to Chinese copy-cat emulation and IP infringements.
Foreign businesses have in the past often suffered under such devious manipulations! Five-star hotels trained Chinese staff at extremely high costs only to see them quit right after they had completed their training - and resurface at a Chinese-owned hotel! |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 4:53 am Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
Awhile were asking questions we might as well tackle this one - I would like to ask has anybody ever seen a company - and this isn't on a shady sub-branch website, but on the real no1 genuine EF website - say that you may be illegally employed, while at the same time stating that you will be sacked for breaking the Chinese law
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vikdk,k
I have NEVER seen such nonsense written into any advert let alone a contract! If you have seen that, do you, perhaps, remember the date of that incident? 1st of April?
But yes, I can believe you that you came across some illegal practices at some EF. I do not believe, however, that any serious number of EF branches in CHina resort to this type of business! There always are rogue employers; you will find them even among public institutions!
I find it far more worrying that so many FTs actually pursue teaching stints in China without going through the motions of legalising their sojourn here.
It is my conviction there are more IIs than employers operating illegally.
Some FTs don't give their school a chance at making them legal! |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 8:55 am Post subject: |
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Rog you can find the EF text, stating you might have to work 9 months on a F, and another piece of blurb saying you'll be fired with immediate effect for breaking the law, on those links I gave. Those quotes I gave are EF HQ info for anyone to read - it's there today - EF prima material not any recruiter krap. If their PR boys can't get their act together - just think what those devious franchise owners may be doing 
Hey Roger what ever your views on pay is - those 30 academic hours as, EF call them, are a handfull. We both know 45 min teaching hour is an hour - and for the newbie 30 is a lot, infact an awefull lot - If me an you had to do so many we wouldn't feel like too much moonlighting - probally be wheeling each other round in wheelchairs
anyways just looks like you an me left - one of the others has gone off crying the other is in a huff with me so i'll wish you a happy new year mate if we don't come to lock horns before the first - hope you have a good un Vik |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
| anyways just looks like you an me left - one of the others has gone off crying the other is in a huff with me so i'll wish you a happy new year mate if we don't come to lock horns before the first - hope you have a good un Vik |
I assume that I am the one that you refer to as being in a huff! Nothing of the sort actually.
I don't agree with your posts and I have stated my reasons why. You just keep posting exactly the same thing over and over again so I don't see any reason in continuing a discussion unless you bring something new to the table. What do you expect me to do, keep copying my posts to respond to your copied posts endlessly
I thought that Rogers post was interesting. This thread has talked a lot about the willingness of schools to employ teachers with a disregard for the laws here in China. No one has defended that.
But I would like to hear your views vikdk on Rogers comment on the fact that a large number of foreign teachers choose to come to China with the intent of working illegally. I would suggest that there are more foreign teachers teaching illegally in China by choice than there are schools employing teachers illegally. So assuming that your argument is all about the fact that illegal is illegal - what do you have to say about those foreign teachers who are working illegally by choice? |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:54 am Post subject: |
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This is an assumption - but I figure most newbies are ignorant of visa laws - many companies schools say they will provide working visa in the advert and provide F visa in situ - when the the new FT has worked out they are illegal suddenly they feel a little threatened.
The FT who has been working here for a year or so takes this kind of thing much more in her stride - she has built up a network - has the resources (language local friends/contacts) to counter potential problems - has the energy (how much energy do you use starting this game learning how to teach here) - know where those bolts holes are if by any chance a runner was neccessary (friends, HK, local PSB to bargain for an L visa -yes folks you can sometimes bargain with PSB as a last resort).
what I am attacking is a big company with a world wide reputation in the educational field - one that has been heralded as a safe haven for the newbie - also can play this game, because a strategy of flaunting Chinese laws, regardless of how leaky they are doesn't bode well in my book for the future well being of employees with this company. So lets not waste our efforts on the other fish in the pool lets focus on that big whale (or is it a shark) maybe if they cleaned their act up at least their side of the pond would be a nicer place to learn to swim. |
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