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superdave01
Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 22
Location: canada
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 Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
| superdave01 wrote: |
| IF it is the teacher who INSISTS on adding probationary periods(and probationary pay) to the contract... |
I think that the moment an employee develops the opinion that he can insist that his employer do anything then the employee should probably start looking for work elsewhere.
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i guess the term contract negotiation is NOT in your vocabulary...i used the word teacher ^above^ , not employee...keep your oranges away from my apples clark...if a company adds any terms to a contract that you don't find to your tastes...don't sign...simple as that. if they refuse to budge, move on to another company. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Whether you like it or not your employer is your boss, and your boss makes the rules. |
Dearest C you have a very naive insight into the labour market -
The worker sells his labour to to the employer as of such we have certain demands - these demands can be seen as our labour rules - Deciding hours of employment, pay rates etc are not just the domain of our bosses we can and should also have an influence here. The document called a contract therefore must be seen as 2-way documentation, ie. a record of the rules the employer and employee must follow to keep a healthy working relationship going. Since some of us don't view so- called probationary wages as very healthy for the FT we advise you negotiate them out of a contract and follow some other wage ruling - such as a constant 12 month sallary 
C the days of serfdom and slavery are over - ever here in FT China |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| superdave01 wrote: |
| i guess the term contract negotiation is NOT in your vocabulary... |
Of course you should negotiate your contract terms. I don't see that insisting upon something is the same as negotiating it but I accept that this is open to interpretation. Personally I think that the word 'negotiate' is a much better word to use in this case as both the employee and the employer have the choice to accept it or walk away.
| superdave01 wrote: |
| i used the word teacher ^above^ , not employee...keep your oranges away from my apples clark... |
It seems to me that in the case of private language institutions in China, which is the group that largely includes probationary periods, a teacher is an employee. I don't see a difference between two in this context but feel free to explain why you consider teachers to be different than employees.
| superdave01 wrote: |
| if a company adds any terms to a contract that you don't find to your tastes...don't sign...simple as that. if they refuse to budge, move on to another company. |
This has been said a number of times on this thread already but thank you for your support of this concept.
Regardless of whether a teacher is an employee; and regardless of whether you insist on terms or negotiate these; the outcome remains the same. When offered a probationary clause you have two choices - one is to accept it and the other is to walk away. I don't think that anyone here is disputing this.
What is at dispute seems to be whether the employer has the right to include a probationary period in the terms of your work. Quite obviously they do.
A further question is should they include such a clause. It seems to me that the schools that offer this type of clause are the sorts of companies that make themselves competitive in the market place by offering teachers good pay and benefits. In doing so they create a sellers market for themselves and as such teachers need to decide whether the probationary period is really such a big deal considering the obvious benefits to the job and the professionalism that often comes with a school reserving the right to get rid of teachers who don't perform. Surely no one here is suggesting that it is common practice for schools to get rid of excellent teachers within the first three months, and good teachers don't need to be fearful of a school that is willing to cut dead wood. |
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superdave01
Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 22
Location: canada
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:45 am Post subject: |
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[quote="clark.w.griswald"]
| superdave01 wrote: |
| superdave01 wrote: |
| i used the word teacher ^above^ , not employee...keep your oranges away from my apples clark... |
It seems to me that in the case of private language institutions in China, which is the group that largely includes probationary periods, a teacher is an employee. I don't see a difference between two in this context but feel free to explain why you consider teachers to be different than employees.
to accept it and the other is to walk away. I don't think that anyone here is disputing this. |
looks like you are confused on timing...i used the word teacher to indicate that there was as yet, no employee/employer relationship....contracts have not been signed. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:27 am Post subject: |
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| ohhh deary me Clark you're clouding the waters again - were argueing about probationary wage rates - the kind of wage Gregor tells us the EF schools set for the first 3 months of a teachers employment - even I admit we can't do anything against a probationary period. Shizer in this unregulated market we are at the whim of our employers - they can choose to sack us any time, for any reason - probation period or not! At least let us try to ensure if that black day ever came around that we would be walking away with as much money as possible - therefore I advise the FT to negotiate a wage to paid at a constant rate over the year - because money in your pocket (as long as it aint false) seems to be more dependable than many contracts (even though I've argued that this is a document for both employer and employee) you're going to be asked to sighn. Probationary rates - no thanks |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:19 am Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
The worker sells his labour to to the employer as of such we have certain demands - these demands can be seen as our labour rules - Deciding hours of employment, pay rates etc are not just the domain of our bosses we can and should also have an influence here.
C the days of serfdom and slavery are over - ever here in FT China |
Two provisos:
While you can always TRY to negotiate better deals in the developed world the labourers (or workers as the case may be) rely on a UNION to do just that.
THis ensures they all get more or less the same terms of employment.
As for "slave labourerss" and the claim that the time of slave labour is over - you are misrepresenting your own working conditions: you alone decided to come over, not your boss. In antique Greece and Rome, slaves were shipped to the Roman forums against their own will.
And no FT is doing much against their own will. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:52 am Post subject: |
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While you can always TRY to negotiate better deals in the developed world the labourers (or workers as the case may be) rely on a UNION to do just that.
THis ensures they all get more or less the same terms of employment. |
well if I cant join the union and fight for my FT rights - better do the next best thing - kick up a fuss here. I know It aint going to make a darn bit bit of difference - but why should a discussion on our interests be swept under the proverbial "thats how it is" carpet. Geeeez we can't even play at being pro FT rights activists here without being told - shhhhhhhhhhhhh don't rock the boat, be grateful that those nice bosses give you a job
PS Rog thanks for the history lesson - but be carefull of being too profound, since I'm starting to get a bald patch from the resultant head scratching |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:03 am Post subject: |
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| superdave01 wrote: |
| ...i used the word teacher to indicate that there was as yet, no employee/employer relationship....contracts have not been signed. |
Fair enough. I am not sure what value there is to this discussion in making this distinction, but I certainly conceed that we are teachers until such time as we choose to become employees. |
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shenyanggerry
Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 619
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:09 am Post subject: |
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The unionized job I started in with the railroad many years ago now has a reduced rate for new employees - 85% of full pay. It goes up in increments over about two years to 100%. This rate was negociated with the union who knew full well that a new employee or 'teddy bear' wasn't much use. The lower rate of pay only partially reflected their value to the company.
I see nothing wrong with a lower rate to start for new employees. For those with experience it's a different thing. I believe Gregor stated that probationary rates only applied to newbies. I know that I was a much better teacher after three months experience.
As far as any employer getting rid of people every three months, you can't know the cost of recruiting. I believe recruiters charge around 10% of the agreed annual salary. Even if you do all your own recruiting, it's a month long dance of emails and phone calls to set things up, especially with a newbie. Anyone who would willingly keep changing teachers every three months is crazy and losing far more money than the pay increase would amount to. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:16 am Post subject: |
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dear Shenyanggerry - I'm sure all FT's will be inspired by your rousing railroad talk - as we all know teaching has so much in common with the transport industry - you know that long and winding journey called education. But remember S whatever our views are on probationary wage levels on the railroad or in the FT industry - at least those railroad guys have a union watching their backs for foul practice! And remember when you have promised wage hikes/bonuses over a 12 month period, instead of a constant wage - you aint vulnerable just for the first 3 months.
By the way most new FT's here are pulling as much weight as the vets within a month of starting work - if the same applies to new recruits on your railways then I'd rather walk
as for those poor bosses and recruiters with all their running around - stop, stop, stop you're starting to make me fell sad for them - the poor overworked dears  |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:15 am Post subject: |
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I am sorry to repudiate your various claims once again, vikdk: wages are known to slide down when the situation permits. Mine haven't - but I remember many university jobs in 2003 offered much higher pay than in 2002; then came SARS...and in its wake the monthly salaries were adjusted downwards. For example universities that offered 8000 would now come up with 6500. It has stabilised there abouts.
You would sound a lot more convincing if you were not constantly trying to pass yourself off as a persecuted, oppressed, enslaved minority fighting for survival in a dog-eat-dog world!
You are a big dog yourself! |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:26 am Post subject: |
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scratch, scratch - that bald patch is getting bigger
Roger I'm about FT's, when operating in an unregulated market, trying to stick up for themselves, and gaurd against possible nasty situations - what on earth is your post about - or maybe I shouldn't ask - but thanks for the big dog thing (it sounded cute the way you wrote it) - maybe I should call you a big ol' bear  |
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fitzgud
Joined: 24 Jan 2006
Posts: 148
Location: Henan province
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:07 am Post subject: |
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vikdk,
tut tut, you in kindy, we all know "Woger is a Wabbit" |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:27 am Post subject: |
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Fitz stop krappin on my intimate moment with R - there's little enough romance in Dave's as it is  |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:19 pm Post subject: "The Probationary Period" |
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Vikdk, be aware of romantic tandems around�cha!
Cheers and beers |
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