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Japanese TEFL market in collapse
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womblingfree

Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:17 am Post subject:

abufletcher wrote:

I stick by my statement that most of the linguistics taught in the vast majority of linguistics departments hasn't changed fundamentally since Chomsky ousted structuralism.

As far as applied linguistics & language learning goes Chomsky was ousted from his dominant position donkeys years ago.

Although anyone taking a TOEIC/TOEFL test may argue with me there.

Still the fact that high schools try to get native or communicative classes squeezed into the curriculum shows that even in the 'grammar' heavy world of Japanese English teaching there has been a willingness to attempt more modern approaches, even if these are seldom implemented as well as they could be.

Vince

Joined: 05 May 2003
Posts: 559
Location: U.S.

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:31 am Post subject:

womblingfree wrote:

Aah yes, but what English? If English is a Lingua Franca then what English should be taught?

My experience has been that the Japanese aren't concerned about any notion of a global English melting pot. Most of my students expressed concern over learning North American, British, or Australian English. They certainly wouldn't consider exposure to British English to be equal to exposure to that of an accomplished Vietnamese speaker of English as a second language. They tend to be in it for utilitarian and business reasons, not the-world-is-flat idealism.

Quote:

I'd say there's a good argument that Japanese English language teachers are far better able to teach their students than many teachers from 'native' speaking countries.

That could go both ways. If the Japanese teacher is completely bicultural and is an outstanding teacher, a native teacher might not compare. But then there's danger of students demanding more Japanese crutch. I had a few situations in which students pushed me (to no avail) to start using Japanese in class, and my Japanese is hardly fluent.

Last edited by Vince on Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:45 am; edited 4 times in total

Vince

Joined: 05 May 2003
Posts: 559
Location: U.S.

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:37 am Post subject:

Stepping away from grammar and toward a more fluid concept of English flies in the face of how Japanese typically learn. Fundamentals are strongly stressed in pretty much everything in Japan, along with the attendant structure, tests, and gaman. I agree that the fluid approach is better, but I don't see a foothold for it. Last edited by Vince on Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:42 am; edited 1 time in total

shuize

Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 1270

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:39 am Post subject:

womblingfree wrote:

I'd say there's a good argument that Japanese English language teachers are far better able to teach their students than many teachers from 'native' speaking countries.

Yes. Obviously. Especially at lower levels. Thus my argument that JET is a collosal waste of money.

Vince

Joined: 05 May 2003
Posts: 559
Location: U.S.

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:42 am Post subject:

shuize wrote:

womblingfree wrote:

I'd say there's a good argument that Japanese English language teachers are far better able to teach their students than many teachers from 'native' speaking countries.

Yes. Especially at lower levels. Thus my argument that JET is a collosal waste of money.

I agree. Japanese teachers are the only way to go for total beginner classes. I once tried to teach two complete beginners from China, and it didn't take long for me to start using Japanese.

shuize

Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 1270

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:51 am Post subject:

Quote:

I agree. Japanese teachers are the only way to go for total beginner classes. I once tried to teach two complete beginners from China, and it didn't take long for me to start using Japanese.

Many years ago I found myself in the exact opposite situation. I was in a beggining Japanese class with a Japanese teacher who would not use any English. Here's how it went:

Japanse teacher: Waka-waka-waka-wonk-desu ka.

Me: ?

Japanese teacher: Waka-waka-waka-wonk.

Me: WTF?

Japanese: Waka-waka-waka-wonk-desu ka.

Me: ?

Japanese teacher: (smile)

Me: (smile)

Japanese teacher: Waka-waka-waka-wonk.

Me: (shrug)

Japanese teacher: (shrug)

womblingfree

Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:59 am Post subject:

Vince wrote:

Most of my students expressed concern over learning North American, British, or Australian English. They certainly wouldn't consider exposure to British English to be equal to exposure to that of an accomplished Vietnamese speaker of English as a second language. They tend to be in it for utilitarian and business reasons, not the-world-is-flat idealism.

I once had a Japanese high school student who was born and raised in Singapore. She spoke perfect Singlish (Singapore English) and as far as I was concerned was a native speaker.

However...

She was constantly put into the lowest streamed English group because her written grammar did not conform with ill conceived notions of what 'correct English' actually is. If my co-workers had been aware of variations of English in Asia rather than some idealised notion of English then this ridiculous situation would never happen. Is Singapore English any less English than any other variation?

Everyone is too concerned with making correct utterances which are rarely, if ever, used by native speakers, let alone by second language speakers who make up the majority of english speakers worldwide.

Quote:

I'd say there's a good argument that Japanese English language teachers are far better able to teach their students than many teachers from 'native' speaking countries.

Vince wrote:

That could go both ways. If the Japanese teacher is completely bicultural and is an outstanding teacher, a native teacher might not compare. But then there's danger of students demanding more access to the Japanese crutch. I had a few situations in which students pushed me (to no avail) to start using Japanese in class.

I don't think being bi-cultural or outstanding is important at all in most cases. It really depends exactly who your students are and to what end they are studying English.

At high school level what is the main aim? Usually to pass the entrance exam. How many high school students will ever use English outside of an English classroom? Very, very few.

In many of these cases a Japanese English teacher, familiar with their students needs, familiar with school objectives and imbedded in the students own culture will be of far more use than an untrained native speaker attempting to implement some vague, ill conceived notion of CLT.

Last edited by womblingfree on Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:06 am; edited 2 times in total

womblingfree

Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:02 am Post subject:

Vince wrote:

Sorry, I just re-read that and it seems we were actually agreeing. Laughing

Mark

Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 500
Location: Tokyo, Japan

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:11 am Post subject:

womblingfree wrote:

Vince wrote:

Quote:

I'd say there's a good argument that Japanese English language teachers are far better able to teach their students than many teachers from 'native' speaking countries.

Vince wrote:

That could go both ways. If the Japanese teacher is completely bicultural and is an outstanding teacher, a native teacher might not compare. But then there's danger of students demanding more access to the Japanese crutch. I had a few situations in which students pushed me (to no avail) to start using Japanese in class.

On this note, at my college, a native-speaker from Scotland was forced to take a remedial English class aimed at second language students. Everybody had to take a language proficiency test and she failed because her punctuation was different, ie British.

Sometimes institutions/people don't even acknowledge alternate forms of written/spoken English that exist in countries thought of as English-speaking.

womblingfree

Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:11 am Post subject:

shuize wrote:

Quote:

I agree. Japanese teachers are the only way to go for total beginner classes. I once tried to teach two complete beginners from China, and it didn't take long for me to start using Japanese.

Hey, I think I took that class!

The scariest thing is how many of us have actually taught those classes. Oh lordy, the poor students.

Mark

Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 500
Location: Tokyo, Japan

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:17 am Post subject:

abufletcher wrote:

Mark wrote:

I'm not sure why you have a problem with dividing courses up into phonology, morphology and so on.

Because this implies precisely the sort of hierarchical organization to language characteristic of orthodox formalist linguistics (from current varieties of Chomskyan theories including B/G and optimality). It is not at all clear (or agreed upon) that language actually IS organized in this way. In fact, within my own field of ethnomethodological conversation analysis the divisions are considered artificial. One of my supervisors has done a lot of work in what might be called discourse phonology.

Quote:

Linguists generally specialize in only one of those areas and they're often working with different theories.

I have to say that about the only areas of linguistics that I currently find interesting are the fields of corpus linguistics, emergent grammars, and interactional linguistics. Nearly everything else is just different flavors of formalism and nativism.

Quote:

the point is to create a model of language (ie, universal grammar) and explain how this basic built-in capacity produces all the world's languages.

This is of course on the Chomskyan/nativist view on the phenomenon of language. Others disagree. My problem with most US linguistics programs is that students can go all the way through an MA and never realize that this formalist/nativist view isn't the only one. How many linguistics majors get an introduction to emergent grammars or conversation analysis.

Quote:

It sounds like you're talking more about sociolinguistics or discourse linguistics, which are still linguistics, but at a different level.

That's the orthodox linguistics take on things, i.e. discourse is linguistics ABOVE the level of the sentence. But again this just reflects the hierarchical view of language that other approaches do not accept. My own research on turn-construction demonstrates how impossible it is to try to treat the different "levels" of language independently.

I stick by my statement that most of the linguistics taught in the vast majority of linguistics departments hasn't changed fundamentally since Chomsky ousted structuralism.

You have a point that linguistics degrees are narrow and students aren't exposed to all points of view.

However, generative linguistics is based on certain assumptions and has certain goals. My program, at least, was very explicit about that. Although, admittedly, virtually no time was given to non-generative linguistics.

I suppose I should do some reading and broaden my perspectives. Any book recommendations?

womblingfree

Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:27 am Post subject:

Mark wrote:

What

How does British punctuation differ from North American punctuation??

The English that the English language business propogates is some idealised notion that exists only in text books.

The way I explain different variations amongst native speakers to my students is that it's the same as different dialects in Japan. Osaka ben and Tokyo ben are both Japanese after all, then they seem to get it.

I mean even within the US there are thousands of variations, even within New York there are thousands of variations, even within Manhattan there are many variations! The same in London or anywhere else in the world. Most people seeking to learn some notion of US/UK English can usually not differentiate between the two.

The amounts of times I have seen a native teacher asked a question such as 'in America do people say...." or "which is more appropriate" and the teacher has rattled their brains and then basically made something up on the spot according to their limited knowledge of dialects and usage.

Mark

Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 500
Location: Tokyo, Japan

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:52 am Post subject:

womblingfree wrote:

Mark wrote:

What

Well, it was a college in Canada and they had a standard language test that all new students (native and non-native) had to take. It was basically a foul-up as far as this girl was concerned, but it had something to do with using commas instead of periods in numbers and stuff like that. I don't know exactly what the problem was, but she was pretty outraged when they told her she had to take this class.

As far as usage and English variations and whatnot, I think teachers should focus on whether it's understandable or not. There are things that I would have thought ungrammatical until I heard a native speaker from another country say them.

I think the best a teacher can do is say, "I don't say that and I've never heard anybody say that, but I can easily understand what you mean and it sounds to me like a possible English sentence/phrase/whatever, so it's up to you if you want to go on saying it."

abufletcher

Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 779
Location: Shikoku Japan (for now)

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:58 am Post subject:

womblingfree wrote:

As far as applied linguistics & language learning goes Chomsky was ousted from his dominant position donkeys years ago.

Notice I kept highlighting AMERICAN linguistics programs. Whereas American linguistics seems to have taken the tone set by Bloomfield all those years ago, British linguistics has been much more strongly influenced by the more socially aware linguistics of Firth. This was one reason I chose to do my Ph.D. at the U. of York. though I'm finding that a research degree from an UK university is just not treated the same as a degree from a US university in terms of tenure-track positions in the US.

As far as Chomsky being "out" in applied linguistics, I'd say that as long as people continue to teach the passive by transforming active sentences and question formation by transforming statements, Chomsky will never really be gone. And of course it goes much much deeper than that. Even teachers who flatly reject Chomskyan linguistics will regularly speak in ways that reveal an acceptance of many of the underlying beliefs of Chomskyan linguistics.

abufletcher

Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 779
Location: Shikoku Japan (for now)

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:09 am Post subject:

gaijinalways wrote:

Damn Abu, and I thought I had some long commutes to Tama and Kanagawa prefecture from where I live in central Tokyo! How far is it to Tokyo for you (I do 75-90 minutes one way myself, depending on the train connections)?

So far I've been flying up from Takamatsu to Haneda. I leave my house about 9:30am and can be at my hotel in Akasaka by 2pm. That's not too bad. But I'm thinking I might also try the Shinkansen. It would be one express train from my little town of Zentsuji through to Okayama and then a straight shot on to Tokyo. Probably about the same total travel time and more confortable and (slightly) more scenic. The way things are working at the moment I only have to travel to Tokyo every other week for Fri/Sat double sessions. Actually, I've rather enjoyed the chance to get off Shikoku and into the BIG city. Starting in May I'll be commuting to Osaka instead.

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