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How do recruiting agencies actually work?
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clark.w.griswald

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 2:32 pm Post subject:

cj750 wrote:

Safea is a not a mandatory organization and not that many schools belong to it...

SAFEA is a government appointed body that oversees all schools and institutions that are licenced to employ foreign professionals. Therefore ALL schools and institutes that offer legal Z visa type work to foreign professionals MUST be overseen by SAFEA.

I am not going to suggest that the system is perfect and that SAFEA is some wonderful organization as I don't believe that. I believe that like most things in China some improvement would be good, and in most cases things are improving.

As far as how many schools are overseen by SAFEA well I disagree that it is not many. It is ALL schools legally able to employ foreign professionals and the list contains over a thousand names. Probably closer to two thousand.

cj750 wrote:

and the PSB can do nothing about disputes and so it goes to the labor board....and mediation does not have to be accepted, next is court and a headhunter will not help with that......

This is entirely up to you, how much you are willing to pursue the matter, and how wrong the school is! If you have a valid case whereby a legal employer has breached the contract to your disadvantage then you will win if you pursue it and I am not talking about court. No one wants to go to court and nor should they as there is nothing more cumbersome and useless than a court case. Almost every problem can be solved prior to or during mediation if you are serious about it.

cj750 wrote:

I have always been legal and have yet to work at a school that has been on the up and up (internationals and Chinese)...

Firstly I think it best that we not include references to international schools as that is really a very different kettle of fish to the one that we are discussing.

Secondly, what do you mean by up and up? Are you talking about schools that deliberately reneged on your contract to your detriment? Can you give us some examples of some of the experiences that you refer to? As they were legal employers what action did you take to have the situation/s rectified?

cj750 wrote:

and I am not as confident as you that most problems between foreigners are due to their illegal status and misunderstandings...and if you have that information please share the source..

I base this information upon my involvement with school reviews over the past four years. Have a quick look through the comments about specific schools on this site and you will that the majority of complaints come from one or a combination of the below:

a) private language institutes that are not licenced to employ foreign teachers;
b) foreign teachers who are teaching here full time on L or F type visas;
c) individuals who do not have at least a tertiary degree;
d) individuals working for a school/s part time and on the side

Of the few reports that come from legal institutions and legal positions, many of these complaints are legitimate comments about experiences in those institutions (e.g. large class sizes, unresponsive students, poor pay etc) but not really complaints as such that SAFEA or any other official body can mediate on.

cj750 wrote:

not only that but in going on 5 years in china ..I have never heard of a recruiter that has helped in any dispute..if there are they do not need a web site to offer services..but would be swamped with calls from word of mouth...

I don't think that I suggested at any time that there were! I believe that what I wrote in my last post was that I don't see it as the job of the traditional recruiter to maintain an interest in the teacher beyond the introduction and beyond any promises that they may have made to you. A traditional recruiter is paid by the school and as such the school is their customer - this is why I suggested an alternative whereby the teacher be more pro-active and offer to pay the fee to have the recruiter for work him or her instead. In this case I am sure that you could negotiate for the services that you are interested in being included.

If the recruiter promised you something that the school did not give you then that is not the schools fault, but that of the recruiter so your complaint is with the recruiter and should be followed up accordingly. If the school promised you something but did not deliver then that is not the recruiters fault, but that of the school and should be followed up with the school.

In my opinion a recruiters job is to be honest with you, help you find a suitable position, and to answer any questions that you may have about the school and the city that it is located in. Finally they should ensure that things are understood by both parties prior to any contract being offered and signed. If you need anything further from the recruiter such as someone to accompany you to an interview, someone to stand by your side in case of a dispute (that is not the recruiters fault) or anything of the like then you would have to pay that person/company for their time.

I believe that this is how the industry works and it is nothing of my doing.

Of course it is in the recruiters best interest to ensure that everything is understood and that the teacher and school are suited to each other as problems during the contract are in nobodies best interests.

cj750 wrote:

I can understand your motivation for this type of advice..but I do not think it is from the best advantage for an applicant...

Fair enough. So could you perhaps outline how a teacher who has never been to China can get work outside of the larger cities without using a recruiter as I am not quite getting this?

cj750 wrote:

and I think that the amount of help from SAFEA or the PBS is non existent and to insist that either of these agencies can or will offer a resolution may be on the ill responsible side..

I have discussed this many times before. Unlike back home the government here does not act proactively. Back home if you have a problem and make a complaint then someone has to do their job and resolve that. Things work differently here and you need to be more active and forceful in ensuring that the situation gets resolved. The system does work, but it is just a bit of an old clunker.

Can the relevant agencies help you if you have a legitimate case against a legal employer? Most definitely.

Do you actually have to make a complaint to them for them to take action? Yes you do. If you don't tell them about a problem then they quite naturally will not know that the problem exists. Far too many people let their problems fall into this 'it's too much trouble' basket only to turn around and suggest that the system doesn't work when in fact they never even tried it.

vikdk

Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 3:56 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Can the relevant agencies help you if you have a legitimate case against a legal employer? Most definitely.

Dearest Clark since you seem to be such a big expert in these matters - please could you back up your statement with a bit of fact - some examples of how the relevant agencies have helped - the timespans between seeking help and the case coming to a conclusion - you know the kind of info that gives a bit of weight to your words Wink

adamsmith

Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 259
Location: wuhan

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 4:00 pm Post subject:

Clark, I think you just need to get your terminology straight. Mediation, while a solution to the problem if both sides agree to the mediators suggestions, can resolve a dispute, but is not legally binding. On the other hand, if you have a dispute you should do what the contract suggests and go through arbitration - this is legally binding and the dispute will be solved. China does have an arbitrator for these disputes between foreign experts and the schools, but I have yet to have found a way to contact them. If you are going to provide advice for people with disputes with their schools, it would be nice if you could provide contact information as well to the arbitrators office so that people could proceed with their complaints.

cj750

Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:31 am Post subject:

Quote:

Fair enough. So could you perhaps outline how a teacher who has never been to China can get work outside of the larger cities without using a recruiter as I am not quite getting this?

These school do advertise and a individual can just simply apply..why the need of a recruiter..and if there is no support..as you have included in you latest post..then why do you need one...

Quote:

This is misleading and false...

Quote:

As far as how many schools are overseen by SAFEA well I disagree that it is not many. It is ALL schools legally able to employ foreign professionals and the list contains over a thousand names. Probably closer to two thousand.

Please disclose this list...and pray tell how does this organization oversee ..how does it go about it..they have no field offices to check on regulation policies...do they send out teams or has anyone been questioned by SAFEA representatives...

Quote:

Again this is simply not true..mediation is not mandatory for schools to accept...and the court system does not match up to contract law with additional information allowable into the process..I have a lot of experience with the courts here and I would tell you that your advice does not bear witness...by the way the useless court date just netted me 36000RMB in a civil matter...where a years worth of mediation did nothing..serious about conflicts means going to the wire...not *beep* footing with in a system that will wear you down and wait for your departure..

Quote:

Secondly, what do you mean by up and up? Are you talking about schools that deliberately reneged on your contract to your detriment? Can you give us some examples of some of the experiences that you refer to?

Example to numerous to give..but recorded on these pages within post...and I think your being coy now..if you have the involvement with the Fts as you say...then you have heard of contract violations on a daily measure..now I would approach you with the same analyst..are you on the up and up..with this picture of "if you work in the system" everything is Rosy..as long as you follow the example by the websites..I would tell folks that this is not a truthful representation..and to expect trouble with everything from contracts to plumbing...

Quote:

base this information upon my involvement with school reviews over the past four years. Have a quick look through the comments about specific schools on this site and you will that the majority of complaints come from one or a combination of the below:

Why categorize the answers into something that would reveal the true nature of conflict..the business culture in China is one of mistrust..and negotiations are continues after signing on the dotted line...

Quote:

but not really complaints as such that SAFEA or any other official body can mediate on.

where does mediation take place..do they have field offices..have you ever attended a meeting or mediation..do they have a mediation council..how are they chosen if they ever are...is there a regional or national mediation center?

Quote:

If the recruiter promised you something that the school did not give you then that is not the schools fault, but that of the recruiter so your complaint is with the recruiter and should be followed up accordingly. If the school promised you something but did not deliver then that is not the recruiters fault, but that of the school and should be followed up with the school.

please provide the procedures for doing this...there are none...

Clark..I don't buy what your selling..but I wont debate this any longer...let the new applicants read and decide..as I said in the first place..this thread was about using recruiters and their usefulness...and I still insist that the best place to get a recruiter is from personal reference and not form yours or anyone else's website..this thread has become one long con=merical for your services..and maybe you can deliver or maybe not..I ha vent used your service but think that all information should be given a look see for the usefulness of any tool...but the thought that you need a recruiter to get a job outside the cities that are big employment centers is likely just a pitch for your service and not a necessity at all...just look on the web at the thousands of jobs..why would you ever need a "headhunter" to help you get a job in a town he or she has never been too either..

clark.w.griswald

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:38 pm Post subject:

adamsmith wrote:

Clark, I think you just need to get your terminology straight. Mediation, while a solution to the problem if both sides agree to the mediators suggestions, can resolve a dispute, but is not legally binding.

Thanks Adam but I believe that I am already aware of the differences and I don't believe that in my posting here that I have confused these.

I refer to mediation as that is what I see it as being. If you can't resolve the differences yourselves then you can take it to the relevant authorities and have them help you resolve it. In many cases a third party can help people resolve these sorts of issues by simply pointing out what everyone is choosing or failing to accept. I did not state that this would be legally binding in my posts so am not sure why you feel that I am confused.

adamsmith wrote:

On the other hand, if you have a dispute you should do what the contract suggests and go through arbitration - this is legally binding and the dispute will be solved.

I don't disagree, but my earlier recommendation stands as far as seeking mediation. Personally, I would find it somewhat offensive to be dragged into arbitration of a dispute and would prefer to have it mediated. I think that it is less confrontational but can acheive the same aims if there is a genuine misunderstanding. You basically both sit down and resolve the issue without being told what to think.

adamsmith wrote:

If you are going to provide advice for people with disputes with their schools, it would be nice if you could provide contact information as well to the arbitrators office so that people could proceed with their complaints.

This is not a question that can be answered reliably in a place like China where the provinces and local governments do things differently. Just because I point out that there is a disputes process available and recommend that people look into this if they have a dispute with an employer does not mean that I am somehow responsible for their decision to do so or not to do so.

As far as finding the relevant mediation in the city that you are in well you are going to have to ask the local authorities in your city for that so I recommend that you start with your local foreign affairs police where you has your visa processed.

cj750 wrote:

Quote:

Fair enough. So could you perhaps outline how a teacher who has never been to China can get work outside of the larger cities without using a recruiter as I am not quite getting this?

These school do advertise and a individual can just simply apply..

This is the whole point cj750 - many of these schools DO NOT advertise positions at all as they fill these positions with the help of recruiters and through other means that teachers not in China may not have access to such a word of mouth.

Daves is one of the best sites for jobs in China yet only about 100 or so schools in China would use Daves each year to advertise jobs. With all the other ESL sites combined you would find a maximum of 1,000 schools that would advertise positions in any given year. Considering that there could be as many as 5,000 schools in China that employ foreigners, that means that a very large percentage of schools in China do not advertise positions.

These are the schools that I asked how a teacher can find a position with if they are not already in China and they don't use a recruiter and I would be interested in an answer to this question as I think that it would be valuable information for people who want to follow your advice.

cj750 wrote:

why the need of a recruiter..and if there is no support..as you have included in you latest post..then why do you need one...

Well there is support there is just no 'hand holding'. I have never stated, nor do I believe, that anyone needs to use a recruiter. I am merely disagreeing with the suggestion that they serve no value.

cj750 wrote:

Quote:

This is misleading and false...

Care to explain why you believe that what I have stated above is incorrect? Surely that is only fair, and useful.

cj750 wrote:

To see a list of legal schools in English as authorized by SAFEA please click here. That also answers a bit of your questions about how SAFEA go about this. Yes they do inspect schools and if you researched a bit about them then you would know this.

cj750 wrote:

Quote:

Again this is simply not true..mediation is not mandatory for schools to accept...

I'm sorry...where have I stated that mediation is mandatory for schools to accept? It isn't, it is just one step that you can take to have problems resolved if that is what you want to do. I think that sometimes people don't really want to resolve problems with their employers as it then gives them an excuse to do a runner, but if people are genuine in their desire to resolve issues then there is a system available.

cj750 wrote:

and the court system does not match up to contract law with additional information allowable into the process..I have a lot of experience with the courts here and I would tell you that your advice does not bear witness...by the way the useless court date just netted me 36000RMB in a civil matter...where a years worth of mediation did nothing..serious about conflicts means going to the wire...not *beep* footing with in a system that will wear you down and wait for your departure..

Going to court is of course the last necessary step if you have a serious civil contract breach that you want to pursue, but you don't go to court if your employer has acted illegally. I doubt that many foreign teachers have any need to take their employers to court and most of the problems that foreign teachers encounter can and should be resolved with the school directly if possible or the local authorities if not.

cj750 wrote:

..if you have the involvement with the Fts as you say...then you have heard of contract violations on a daily measure..

Actually I don't agree. I see lots of complaints about schools along the lines of work hours, accomodation, difficult FAO's, difficult students, and the inevitable comment about the school not following the contract with no information as to how. What I don't see is a lot of complaints along the lines of 'the school agreed to pay me x amount for x number of hours but then only paid me y amount' etc.

Unmet expectations or encountered difficulties are interesting and useful experiences to hear about a school but they do not automatically equal contract breach!

cj750 wrote:

now I would approach you with the same analyst..are you on the up and up..with this picture of "if you work in the system" everything is Rosy..

Again cj I don't believe that this is truthful as I don't believe that I have suggested this. Please point out where you believe that I have said this however.

I don't believe that all is rosey at all, but I do believe that most problems are not contract breaches and can in fact be resolved if the teacher really wants the issue to be resolved.

cj750 wrote:

My personal experience has been mediation through the foreign affairs police, and with the tax department. In both cases I research the relevant legislation, collected together my relevant documents, presented my case clearly and without dragging all sorts of non-related business into the issue, stood firm, persevered and got what I wanted. As I have said all along it is not easy, but it is also not terribly difficult, but the opportunity is most definitely there whether you choose to accept it or not.

Teachers have also reported to me similar experiences to mine above.

cj750 wrote:

Quote:

please provide the procedures for doing this...there are none...

The prcedure is a pretty simple one...you talk to people, not at them, but to them. If they don't listen then you go above them until you find that either you are wrong and that your complaint has no grounding, or you get what you want.

cj750 wrote:

Clark..I don't buy what your selling..but I wont debate this any longer...let the new applicants read and decide..as I said in the first place..this thread was about using recruiters and their usefulness...and I still insist that the best place to get a recruiter is from personal reference and not form yours or anyone else's website..this thread has become one long con=merical for your services..and maybe you can deliver or maybe not..I ha vent used your service but think that all information should be given a look see for the usefulness of any tool...but the thought that you need a recruiter to get a job outside the cities that are big employment centers is likely just a pitch for your service and not a necessity at all...

This does not make any sense at all and is in fact quite contradictory. Further I find it a shame that you have resorted to attempted insults as this up to now has been a pretty civil and I think useful discussion of the topic of recruiters. I won't join you in the insults stuff though as I personally do not believe that it helps further any argument and in fact see it as a sign that one is unable to argue the point so resorts to arguing about the person making the point!

I am not selling any service nor is the site that I am associated with.

If people want access to the most comprehensive list of schools in China that I am aware of so that they can contact these schools directly then they can either submit information to support the site in order to avoid payment, or if they don't have any information to offer then they can pay to help upkeep the site.

If the site were a recruiting site then we would hardly want to let teachers contact the schools directly Rolling Eyes

cj750 wrote:

just look on the web at the thousands of jobs..why would you ever need a "headhunter" to help you get a job in a town he or she has never been too either..

Round and round we go.

No one has suggested that any teacher needs a recruiter. I have merely been pointing out that their services can be valuable for some people and you haven't really proven that to be inaccurate.

It has already been accepted that a good recruiter of value would have to have personal knowledge of the schools for which they recruit. We already covered this so I am a bit confused why you would have a last sentence in your discussion that mentions something that has already been covered and agreed upon.

I am happy to leave the discussion here as I do agree that people will make up their own minds and there is certainly enough in this thread for them to do that either way.

I would be interested in an answer to my earlier question however as to how people who are not in China and who choose not to use a recruiter can contact the large percentage of schools who do not advertise jobs on the internet.

vikdk

Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 5:34 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Dearest Clark - why so hazy about these events - both yours and the experiences of others. On the subject of your own story - what kind of problems did you resolve - how long did your mediation process take - was it on your own behalf or that of a teacher under your employ - put a bit of flesh on your story Clark Wink

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