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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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 Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:52 am Post subject: |
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CLARK Your lack of experience is evident....
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| I am referring to the fact that as most private language training centers are in central locations in cities that you have good access to potential privates |
Most [private language schools will not allow and will actively dicourage out side work...this is why I dont think you have had this experience.
And as to EFs accounting trickery, they use this tatic to recruit PT teachers with a seemely higher PT wage and then on Payday, the FT finds the amount to be in line with what others pay and not the better wage represented by EF...
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| While I agree that there are indeed some public and private positions in small cities and rural areas that enable teachers to pick up lots of outside work, these are in the minority. |
Where do you get your information .... rural areas around the cities are where most of the part time work is...small town language mills where the employees do not have time due to their work week 30 -40 hours....heck if you have a fulltime gig in the city, you can work at EF..as their employees do not have time to take additonal work.
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| Am I an expert on them � no. Have I worked for private language training centers before � yes. Seems to me that we are all in the same boat here so I am not sure why some posters feel that they are such authorities on the subject! |
What posters are you refering to..those who disagree with you...it is just my opinion that you have little real service as a FT.
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| To me the suggestion that you can earn more on the side in isolated small city or fringe area jobs than you can a job in the big cities is really questionable and comes across to me as just being nothing more than a desperate attempt to further the myth that chain schools should be avoided. |
I though we were talking about language mills such as EF and the ability to earn extra money..and with the work load at EF or the Chain language schools the employee has less time and opportunity than if they worked a weekday gig at a local college or university, institue or language insitute... |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 1:58 am Post subject: |
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| cj750 wrote: |
| CLARK Your lack of experience is evident.... |
There you go with that high almighty talk again. Just because we hold different views on the subject does not mean that one or the other of us is more knowledgable about the subject! I actually have a deal of experience with private language training centers but I am certainly not an expert on them.
| cj750 wrote: |
| Most [private language schools will not allow and will actively dicourage out side work...this is why I dont think you have had this experience. |
Are you in the habit of telling your employer what you do in your own time?
| cj750 wrote: |
| And as to EFs accounting trickery, they use this tatic to recruit PT teachers with a seemely higher PT wage and then on Payday, the FT finds the amount to be in line with what others pay and not the better wage represented by EF... |
Perhaps you are right and it is deliberate trickery, but then perhaps its not.
Either way, if you are working part time then you are not under contract so if you find the work not to your liking then you can exercise the right not to take on any further work there.
| cj750 wrote: |
| rural areas around the cities are where most of the part time work is... |
I don't agree that there is more private work in rural areas than in cities. Yes there is work to be had, no doubt there. But in most cases there is less, it is harder to find, the pay rates are lower, and the travel times are greater as in many cases schools in rural areas are located on the edge or outside of town. Compare that to your standard private training center which is generally located in the commercial or office district of a city and the advantages become clear. It is not a black and white situation as there are clearly so many variables and exceptions but I believe that generally speaking your earning potential in cities is better than outside of cities.
| cj750 wrote: |
| What posters are you refering to..those who disagree with you...it is just my opinion that you have little real service as a FT. |
No. Plenty of posters here disagree with my points of view but do so without the need to attempt to belittle or insult. I have no problem with discussion and in fact that is what I come here for. I think that it is clear which posters I am referring to and if you consider yourself to be one of those then so be it.
Oh and by the way you are entitled to your opinions even though in this particular case you could not be more wrong about my experiences as a teacher. I am not going to get into a pissing contest about that however hence the fact that I avoid discussing those experiences here.
If you want to discuss a point then I am happy to but I am not going to get caught up in arguments justifying whether I have the right to post on the subject or not. I trust that the users here are smart enough to identify for themselves if what I post is right or wrong.
| cj750 wrote: |
| and with the work load at EF or the Chain language schools the employee has less time and opportunity than if they worked a weekday gig at a local college or university, institue or language insitute... |
Just because a teacher in an isolated area has plenty of time on his or her hands does not mean that he or she can earn more money as there often is no easy opportunity to earn such money. In cities the opportunity is pretty much always there you just need to decide whether you want to work to earn the extra money or not. |
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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:03 am Post subject: |
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[quote]I don't agree that there is more private work in rural areas than in cities. Yes there is work to be had, no doubt there. But in most cases there is less, it is harder to find, the pay rates are lower, and the travel times are greater as in many cases schools in rural areas are located on the edge or outside of town. Compare that to your standard private training center which is generally located in the commercial or office district of a city and the advantages become clear. It is not a black and white situation as there are clearly so many variables and exceptions but I believe that generally speaking your earning potential in cities is better than outside of cities.
well your right bout it not being black or white..there is no indication as to what either of us has said..but to pit the rural against the city is just not a clear view of the geographical locations of schools..usually schools outside the cities are not in real rural locations...and due to the fact that many schools build close together help in cross employment. While language mills such as EF send you to outside areas requiring travel time and are the most vigilant as to stopping their workers from competing against them with additional jobs in other language centers and with private students which they see as lost revenue. The statements you make trying to polarise rural from urban does little but betrays your support for chain schools which you advertise and have a bias as to your postings.
The bottom line is that your able to find more outside work if you have fewer hours and with a language mil, they will insure that hours are spread out and during the evenings and weekends so the FT really doesn't have the time or the ability to find additional work. Which if the language mill finds out about will result in a discipline actions often taking the form of fines...the smart FTs finds a base job at a school or university with accomodations and weekday classes not more than 16-18 hours, a long holiday period and paid "spring festival" ...and then use the additional time to work at language mills such as EF to take additional classes that EF employees do not have time for...
Bottom line Clark, your experience at a FT has either been history for too long to be relevant or tainted by the fact that you support your advertised clients..
How many EF teachers actually work part time and will EF center forbid a FT from working for a competitor of from even taking private students...
If a FT doesnt want to work extra hours, they will usually make a little more on a language mill, but will have to work a 30 to 40 hour week and have class hours spread out over weekend and classes..while a FT that works for a school will often have weekday classes and free time to be able to work PT jobs.
Also the language mills offer less time off during the holidays and a limited vacation time..while the spring festival and summer vacations are often when a FT can earn the vacation pay form the institution and additional pay from a summer camp or a program run by a language mil..
most FTs working at language mills on part time jobs are from schools and not from other language mills ...
by the way, while you were at the language mill you claim to have worked for ..did you enjoy any part time jobs...why not tell some of your experiences instead of just alluding to this rich history of foreign experience. |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:58 am Post subject: |
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buximan's posts are rich of all kinda wordin' on our forums, aren't they?
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| Bottom line Clark, your experience at a FT has either been history for too long to be relevant or tainted by the fact that you support your advertised clients.. |
that might be quite a truthful "bottom line" there 
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one wrote:
CLARK Your lack of experience is evident....
buxiCLARK replied:
There you go with that high almighty talk again. Just because we hold different views on the subject does not mean that one or the other of us is more knowledgable about the subject! I actually have a deal of experience with private language training centers but I am certainly not an expert on them. |
the "high almighty talk" has been quite evident on EF related threads with you CLARK...you've been puttin' all your time and might in the EF related threads for a long time...then, amazingly your EF knowledge or experience does not go beyond our forums or contacts from your buxiban...i don't believe that any of us would ever confront you or your long and almighty wordings on threads, if you showed that you know the topics/subjects of threads a bit better
WAS THAT PRIVATE LANGUAGE TRAINING CENTER'S NAME "THE REAL McCOY" 
peace to buximan's EF experience and all his thaughts, agreements or disagreements on EF related threads
and
cheers and beers to Real McShy where Clarkie has actually worked once 
_____________________________________________________________
i have worked for EF as a full time, when i was listed as a part time
i have worked with EF teachers that were not listed as EF employees |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 4:24 am Post subject: |
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| cj750 wrote: |
| The bottom line is that your able to find more outside work if you have fewer hours and with a language mil, they will insure that hours are spread out and during the evenings and weekends so the FT really doesn't have the time or the ability to find additional work. |
Actually I think that the bottom line would actually be having time to do extra work plus having the availability of extra work to take on. Not much good having plenty of time on your hands if there are no students who are willing to pay you for that time.
| cj750 wrote: |
| ...the smart FTs finds a base job at a school or university with accomodations and weekday classes not more than 16-18 hours, a long holiday period and paid "spring festival" ...and then use the additional time to work at language mills such as EF to take additional classes that EF employees do not have time for... |
I agree that this is a good alternative. But you would need to find a base school or university that was in a convenient enough location to enable you to find and teach these extra hours. I don't believe that there are many such schools that fit these criteria which is why I suggest that chain schools are not such a bad way of making money if that is your aim.
| cj750 wrote: |
| Bottom line Clark, your experience at a FT has either been history for too long to be relevant or tainted by the fact that you support your advertised clients.. |
Why? Because I don't agree with you. What you write above tells more about you than it does about me I am afraid. If you could you would argue the point without the need to look for crutches or attempt to undermine the party with an opposing opinion.
| cj750 wrote: |
| How many EF teachers actually work part time and will EF center forbid a FT from working for a competitor of from even taking private students... |
I would not support a teacher taking curriculum from their main employer nor stealing students from their main employer. But aside from that what you do in your own time is your own business.
| cj750 wrote: |
| Also the language mills offer less time off during the holidays and a limited vacation time..while the spring festival and summer vacations are often when a FT can earn the vacation pay form the institution and additional pay from a summer camp or a program run by a language mil.. |
This is true and certainly a big plus for schools outside of chains. But all is contingent upon that extra work being available, and the work being conveniently located for the teacher. Those are two criteria that are difficult to meet in many isolated areas which is why I suggest that work at centrally located chain schools can be more conducive to earning a higher income if that is what you want to do.
| cj750 wrote: |
| by the way, while you were at the language mill you claim to have worked for ..did you enjoy any part time jobs...why not tell some of your experiences instead of just alluding to this rich history of foreign experience. |
And this is exactly why I choose not to discuss my personal experiences on this board. To do so either becomes a pissing contest as to who has more right to an opinion, or as in this case people who don't agree with your point of view just throw out the suggestion that you are lieing.
I don't come here for your personal satisfaction cj750 and I certainly don't feel the need to justify my comments to you. I trust that people who come here can decide for themselves whose information they feel is of most value. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 4:39 am Post subject: |
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Dearest Clark -
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| I don't come here for your personal satisfaction cj750 and I certainly don't feel the need to justify my comments to you. |
So what exactly is your posting agenda - after all when the only definite link, to the Chinese EFL market, we get for you is a site web site that aids recruiting, many posters do start to wonder why your posts seem to be spun in the direction of protecting employer interests and encouraging yet more "white skin" to try the job of FT.
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| I trust that people who come here can decide for themselves whose information they feel is of most value. |
I believe that trust (judgement) would be enhanced by some info on what your present professional links are to the EFL industry in China - why hide behind that buxiban site - a site that takes money to advertise the company we are discussing in this thread!!!!! |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 4:39 am Post subject: |
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| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
| ...What you write above tells more about... |
how much time you have on your hands to discuss EF related issues that you know only from our forums and your buxiban site where you advertise some of those EF centers
peace to buximan's knowledge and experience
and
cheers and beers to all hard working FTs in china  |
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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 5:18 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I would not support a teacher taking curriculum from their main employer nor stealing students from their main employer. But aside from that what you do in your own time is your own business. |
You may support or not support Clark, but most contracts with language ills such as EF state tht no outside work is to be taken on..and these mills have the ability to know when a teacher is taking on private students and working part time at other schools..
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Quote:
I don't come here for your personal satisfaction cj750 and I certainly don't feel the need to justify my comments to you.
So what exactly is your posting agenda - after all when the only definite link, to the Chinese EFL market, we get for you is a site web site that aids recruiting, many posters do start to wonder why your posts seem to be spun in the direction of protecting employer interests and encouraging yet more "white skin" to try the job of FT. |
Well you do post and it is for my pleasure as it is for many...and I feel no need for justification. I understand your reasons for your position but feel that you either lack the experience claimed or are fronting the whole thing to facilitate a paid website. Why dispense information here instead of insuring that the information on your website is correct and the reviews are followed up to insure their accuracy....
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| Actually I think that the bottom line would actually be having time to do extra work plus having the availability of extra work to take on. Not much good having plenty of time on your hands if there are no students who are willing to pay you for that time. |
Clark, this is China and there are always students...a language mill will not facilitate ways to earn extra money as easily as a private school with limited work days and assigned weekday classes..compared to weekend and evening classes...
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| agree that this is a good alternative. But you would need to find a base school or university that was in a convenient enough location to enable you to find and teach these extra hours. I don't believe that there are many such schools that fit these criteria which is why I suggest that chain schools are not such a bad way of making money if that is your aim |
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chain schools will not allow the time to make the extra money...and again I would ask you how much extra work did you do when you supposely worked at a chain school...
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cj750 wrote:
Bottom line Clark, your experience at a FT has either been history for too long to be relevant or tainted by the fact that you support your advertised clients..
Why? Because I don't agree with you. What you write above tells more about you than it does about me I am afraid. If you could you would argue the point without the need to look for crutches or attempt to undermine the party with an opposing opinion. |
Because the experience doesn't show through on your post..they are gleamed from the internet with an agenda for support of the advertised chain schools..as it is from those clients (along with paying FTs) that you generate income ..
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cj750 wrote:
by the way, while you were at the language mill you claim to have worked for ..did you enjoy any part time jobs...why not tell some of your experiences instead of just alluding to this rich history of foreign experience.
And this is exactly why I choose not to discuss my personal experiences on this board. To do so either becomes a pissing contest as to who has more right to an opinion, or as in this case people who don't agree with your point of view just throw out the suggestion that you are lieing (lying). |
Good one clark, still it is my contention tht you have little or no experience working as a FT... the reason you choose not to ...is it is easy to hide behind a statement like this ...
Clark, your right about one thing ..
| Quote: |
| people who come here can decide for themselves whose information they feel is of most value. |
i would suggest that no one and I mean no one follow anyone advice seen on this board til you check it out and the source from which it comes...everyone has an angle and some angles are about personal satisfaction and other have an agenda based on the ESL industry...that said..why not just let the folks out there decide for them selves if they will have enough time to earn extra bucks from a chain school vs. a institute or public/private school..
Last edited by cj750 on Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:36 am; edited 2 times in total |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:17 am Post subject: |
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List of Schools in Taiwan
List of Schools in China |
i am sure it's a helpful list of schools with a helpful site owner
however, any EF centers that he carries on his site need to be looked at closely
the worst individual EF centers desperately advertise everywhere they can and so especially 'cause they've lost their rights to recruit through the central office
followin' up on those adds, you may not end up with the organization that you are hoping for
peace to the owner of this list of schools
and
cheers and beers to his experience in the esl business as well as cheers and beers to his claimed knowledge of EF English First organization |
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