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fitzgud
Joined: 24 Jan 2006
Posts: 148
Location: Henan province
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 Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| I�m with you Brian, the man is a bounder, a cad, a gigolo |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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| therock wrote: |
Do a search of New Times posts, generally they are negative.........but the funny thing almost every negative story about New Times, nolefan has defended them. They most be paying him.  |
Following that logic anyone who posts negative comments must be getting paid by a competing company.
Clearly some people have good experiences and some have bad experiences. In my opinion each have a right to speak about their experiences and opinions. I am not sure why some people seem to feel that the only valuable report is a negative one!
| therock wrote: |
| On another note, with all the negative stories floating around, why are people still using New Times!!!! |
Perhaps this is because these individuals avoid knee-jerk opinions and actually take the time to research said company. If you do this yourself you will find:
a. the number of posts in favor of the company exceed the number of posts not in favor of the company by around 3:1
b. the posts made in favor of the company generally give the good and the bad and read as being more honest 'reviews'. The posts made against the company are often short, one sided, and made in pretty bad English (that is partly the company's fault for hiring non-native English speakers to teach English here!).
c. some of the posts for the company are made by foreigners who used the company as a recruiter and then went onto to actually work as a recruiter for that company, but no longer do. What better information to get than the experiences of someone who was both a customer and an employee of the said company.
NT is not perfect and I have some concerns about some of the employment opportunities that they offer unqualified applicants. But it seems pretty clear that if you are a qualified applicant and if you want to go through a recruiter then NT may be worth looking into. |
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OGFT
Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:37 am Post subject: |
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| Following that logic anyone who posts negative comments must be getting paid by a competing company. |
following this logic, you must work for NT
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I am not sure why some people seem to feel that the only valuable report is a negative one! |
I think you have answered your own question:
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| In my opinion each have a right to speak about their experiences and opinions. |
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| Perhaps this is because these individuals avoid knee-jerk opinions and actually take the time to research said company. |
I would think that by discussing these events which no one has denied, individuals are taking the time to report and investigate. |
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therock
Joined: 31 Jul 2005
Posts: 1266
Location: China
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:21 am Post subject: |
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Following that logic anyone who posts negative comments must be getting paid by a competing company.
Clearly some people have good experiences and some have bad experiences. In my opinion each have a right to speak about their experiences and opinions. I am not sure why some people seem to feel that the only valuable report is a negative one!
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Yes I am sure some people have had good experiences with NT, and I would enjoy ready a positive review of the company once in a while. However the people who usually defend NT or post positive reviews are always the same individuals and if you look closer, these people usually have some sort of business relationship with the company.
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Perhaps this is because these individuals avoid knee-jerk opinions and actually take the time to research said company. If you do this yourself you will find:
a. the number of posts in favor of the company exceed the number of posts not in favor of the company by around 3:1 |
This is news to me, are we reading the same Dave's ESL board? Fair enough it's easier to post a negative message than a positive one. However everytime I read a post that is in favor of NT it's from the same individuals. I am yet to see a post from someone who has used this company and DOES NOT have business relations with them.
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| b. the posts made in favor of the company generally give the good and the bad and read as being more honest 'reviews'. The posts made against the company are often short, one sided, and made in pretty bad English (that is partly the company's fault for hiring non-native English speakers to teach English here!). |
Generally the posts in favor are from people who have some business relationship with the company. If they are hiring non-native speakers that says a lot about their company. And I can guarantee you that when they present these non-native speakers to potential schools they lie about the teachers qualifications.
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| c. some of the posts for the company are made by foreigners who used the company as a recruiter and then went onto to actually work as a recruiter for that company, but no longer do. What better information to get than the experiences of someone who was both a customer and an employee of the said company. |
Try the majority of posts favoring the company are done by foreigners who work for Mr. Dou as recruiters.
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| NT is not perfect and I have some concerns about some of the employment opportunities that they offer unqualified applicants. But it seems pretty clear that if you are a qualified applicant and if you want to go through a recruiter then NT may be worth looking into. |
A good majority of the foreigners who use NT services are unqualified. Clearly if you are qualified to teach in China you do not need to use a recruiter, you would receive a great amount of offers by just applying directly to the school. Even if you are unqualified to teach in China, I would still recommend you search for a job without the services of a recruiter like NT.
Face it Clark, recruiters generally have a bad reputation here in China, you are not going to change that by pleading ignorance, when places like NT improve the quality of the product they are offering then you will see more positive reviews |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| OGFT wrote: |
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| Following that logic anyone who posts negative comments must be getting paid by a competing company. |
following this logic, you must work for NT |
There is no logic in the kind of statement that you make here. Just because someone does not join the bagging of a certain company does not mean that the person works for that company. And in my case I can categorically state that I don�t. So not only is it illogical to suggest, but factually incorrect � which is a characteristic that I find with many of the anti-recruiter and anti-school posts. Specific information gets my respect.
| therock wrote: |
| However the people who usually defend NT or post positive reviews are always the same individuals and if you look closer, these people usually have some sort of business relationship with the company. |
That is just the sort of empty rhetoric that we see coming from the anti-recruiter crowd. If you can�t find any specific reasons to point out specific problems why not cast a wider net and try to cast a bad light on all of those who have something positive to say.
Here is a challenge for you. I have spoken positively about NT before but I have never had a business relationship with the company. So I am at least one exception to what you suggest before and it is clear to me that there are many more.
| therock wrote: |
| Quote: |
| a. the number of posts in favor of the company exceed the number of posts not in favor of the company by around 3:1 |
This is news to me, are we reading the same Dave's ESL board? Fair enough it's easier to post a negative message than a positive one. |
There is a whole world of internet outside of Daves board. As we have seen time and time again Daves is not a good place to post anything positive about schools or recruiters. So it is incorrect to suggest that they don't exist, it is correct to say that they are seldom posted here! I think that this is a great shame as it means that readers here only see a part of the truth. So you will have to look a bit further to get the real truth here.
| therock wrote: |
| However everytime I read a post that is in favor of NT it's from the same individuals. I am yet to see a post from someone who has used this company and DOES NOT have business relations with them. |
That is because you are choosing not to see that. There are only two individuals that I know of who actually worked for that company and who speak well of it. The rest of the posts that I am familiar with are from teachers who used their services and liked it. What is clear is that most of the customers and previous staff of that company speak overall pretty well about that company.
| therock wrote: |
| Try the majority of posts favoring the company are done by foreigners who work for Mr. Dou as recruiters. |
That is just a furphy and something that people have tried to use against me whenever I suggest that there is another side to the negative stories that we tend to see here. I know in my case that posters here are willing to brand other posters without first checking their facts and to me that is really counterproductive to the value of this board where we should be helping each other not trying to discredit each other with falsities.
| therock wrote: |
| A good majority of the foreigners who use NT services are unqualified. |
Do you know that for a fact or is this just another supposition that you are making and suggesting as being fact?
I can�t really comment too much as I just don�t know whether it is true or not. Whatever the number may be I personally think that it is too much and I certainly do not support NT or any other company in this regard. However to be fair it takes two to tango and therefore the unqualified teachers who chose to take on illegal work here should also accept responsibility for their decisions if things don�t work out. I am sure that you agree!
| therock wrote: |
| Clearly if you are qualified to teach in China you do not need to use a recruiter, you would receive a great amount of offers by just applying directly to the school. Even if you are unqualified to teach in China, I would still recommend you search for a job without the services of a recruiter like NT. |
I have never seen anyone suggest that anyone has to use a recruiter. So I don�t see what the point is of suggesting that there is no need to use a recruiter.
The fact is that some people choose to use recruiters and that is their rightful choice. Personally I would prefer to help them by steering them in the right direction toward the better recruiters and away from the worst ones, and I have seen no evidence to suggest that NT is at the bad end of the scale.
| therock wrote: |
| Face it Clark, recruiters generally have a bad reputation here in China, you are not going to change that by pleading ignorance, when places like NT improve the quality of the product they are offering then you will see more positive reviews |
That is also not true. Recruiters have a bad reputation among some people on this board that is for sure. Some of that is based upon legitimate bad experiences with certain recruiters while much of it is just echoes by people who find recruiters an easy target.
The fact is that many people come to China through recruiters and enjoy their experiences. If this were not true then there would be no recruiters as no schools or teachers would use them. |
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OGFT
Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:25 am Post subject: |
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| I have spoken positively about NT before but I have never had a business relationship with the company. |
Clark, Then by what personal knowledge can you support a company that you have no relationship with. If would appear that you have admitted to "fronting" about a company you have little information about.
Also to defend the actions of a Mr. Dou, without actually having a relationship with this company would make your post suspect.
It would appear that opnce again you have answered your own post.
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| So not only is it illogical to suggest, but factually incorrect |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| OGFT wrote: |
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| I have spoken positively about NT before but I have never had a business relationship with the company. |
Clark, Then by what personal knowledge can you support a company that you have no relationship with. If would appear that you have admitted to "fronting" about a company you have little information about. |
So let me get this clear.
Provided that one agrees with your negative views on the subject then you have no problem with the lack-of-basis for their views and they can post here unchallenged. I note that a number of individuals within this thread have posted negatively about NT but neither you, nor anyone else, has questioned whether they have worked for that company nor whether they have even had any dealings with that company.
However should someone have the hide to post something counter to your opinion then they become a target because either:
a. they have had involvement with that company in which case their comments are not valid as they must be biased; or
b. they have had no involvement with that company and are therefore in no position to have an opinion
This is the general illogical progression of discussions about schools and recruiters that we tend to see here and I am sure that even you can see how clearly one-sided you are being. It is basically a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation and this is exactly why we don't hear a lot of positive comments here.
This is why comments such as yours are self-prophetic in a way as by beating down anyone who has anything positive to say you are in a way guaranteeing that no one says anything positive which in turn provide false vindication for your position that no one has anything positive to say.
As I stated earlier in this post I have had dealings with all of the companies that I posted the names for. I have never been an employee of any of them, I have just spent time understanding how they operate and it is clear to me that none of them are out to cheat foreign teachers and no one has ever proved otherwise despite many, many suggestions. But I certainly welcome proof from you OGFT as to how NT deliberately sets out to cheat its foreign teachers.
Having said all of this, I personally would much rather read a comment from someone who has both worked as a foreign teacher placed through that company and who has also worked as a direct employee of that company. Who could have a better understanding of the company than that? Perhaps you should take note that while those individuals do not rave about the company they do speak about it in largely positive terms and to me that just confirms what I found myself!
So OGFT what is your experience with NT that forms the basis of your involvement here?
| OGFT wrote: |
| Also to defend the actions of a Mr. Dou, without actually having a relationship with this company would make your post suspect. |
You are going to have to quote me on this one OGFT as I don't believe that I defended the guy. Once again plenty have come out against him without having had any personal relationship. The fact that you accept those opinions and are selective in your challenging of others undermines your argument in my opinion.
I merely questioned whether what Mr Dou did was so terribly wrong. Two adults, clearly not a standard night out, mistakes of judgement on behalf of both individuals. As such I am not so willing as many of you seem to be to drag Mr Dou through the coals! Noticeably neither does the actual complainant seem to have too much of an issue with Mr Dou regarding this matter! |
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OGFT
Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Provided that one agrees with your negative views on the subject then you have no problem with the lack-of-basis for their views and they can post here unchallenged. |
Clark, now your characterizing post I have never made. My negative views are aimed at your motivation for posting and I have never made a post where as I have expressed any view as to this subject. You need to be more honest in your approach to posting.
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| You are going to have to quote me on this one OGFT as I don't believe that I defended the guy. |
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| I merely questioned whether what Mr Dou did was so terribly wrong. |
Sounds like a defensive position to me.
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| The fact that you accept those opinions and are selective in your challenging of others undermines your argument in my opinion. |
Again with a dishonest attempt to characterize my post. I challenge your post because I feel that your participation's is motivated by business interest and little more. |
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sfarkas103
Joined: 08 Apr 2004
Posts: 47
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| Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 10:31 pm Post subject: Shut down New Times for good |
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It is sad to see so much debate about a company that really shouldn't be in existence any longer. Equally troublesome is clark. w. griswald banging the drum for the Shijiazhuang crumbs. He states:
"NT is not perfect and I have some concerns about some of the employment opportunities that they offer unqualified applicants. But it seems pretty clear that if you are a qualified applicant and if you want to go through a recruiter then NT may be worth looking into."
[quote]
I have a degree in Economics, a valid TOEFL certificate, three years teaching experience in China and three positive references from my former employers in China. NT ripped me off and sent me on a wild ride to some desolate school with a pack of lies. Then again, maybe I wasn't qualified enough. Right clark?? |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:35 am Post subject: |
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If you have a serious problem with NT why not contact SAFEA online.
The URL for their homepage is -
http://www.safea.gov.cn/english/index.php
In the bottom right hand corner you can click to get into a review section - and although the content of this and the rest of the site is pure PRC comedy at its best - its about the closest you can come to making an official complaint without actually having to do it in person. And if enough FT's in China actually started using this service in a serious way - maybe SAFEA - and their local offices - might be a tad more serious regarding some of the cowboy companies that operate in this market!!!!! |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:05 am Post subject: Re: Shut down New Times for good |
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OGFT your earlier comments were not just aimed at me they were aimed at everyone who has not slagged off NT in this thread. Clearly one sided.
I posted a list of what I consider to be reasonable recruiters worth a look and NT was on this list. You are suggesting that I have a business relationship with NT so are you also suggesting that I must have a business relationship with all of those other companies too?!
The simple answer which you fail to accept is that I don't have any financial interest in my comments about those companies. I have merely found that they are not out to rip foreign teachers off and that generally speaking they do well by foreign teachers they place. No more and no less.
I note that you did not pass on anything about your experience with this company that would support your suggestions here on this thread that only those who support them must be paid by them, so I will take that to mean that your comments here are in fact just anti-recruiter bias with no specific information.
| sfarkas103 wrote: |
| I have a degree in Economics, a valid TOEFL certificate, three years teaching experience in China and three positive references from my former employers in China. NT ripped me off and sent me on a wild ride to some desolate school with a pack of lies. Then again, maybe I wasn't qualified enough. Right clark?? |
sfarkas103 you have misunderstood my remark about 'qualified' teachers. It does not pertain to level of qualification or right of qualification, but to legal qualification. To qualify as a legal foreign teacher of English in China you need to be a native English speaker and hold at least a Bachelors Degree from a recognized tertiary institution. Of course there is some variance of enforcement of the above but as a general rule it holds true. I don't support the employment of individuals who do not qualify for legal work here as by ending up in illegal positions these teachers find themselves more vulnerable to problems. In the case of NT we see that quite clearly and this is why I suggest that the onus is on the individual not to leave him or herself vulnerable.
I think it would be good to hear more about your experiences. As if you were genuinely wronged by NT then it will be good to have a solid black mark against the NT name. As I have stated I am sure that they are not perfect and that there are some complaints out there about them. However with a lack of information to go off it is difficult to see whether NT is at fault in the case you present here or not. I am not asking you to justify your post, I am asking you to elaborate so that we all have an idea of what situation you encountered and whether NT was solely to blame. |
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OGFT
Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:27 am Post subject: |
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| OGFT your earlier comments were not just aimed at me they were aimed at everyone who has not slagged off NT in this thread. Clearly one sided. |
Talk about clearly one sided and clearly a dishonest approach to debate, I have not mentioned NT n any of my post. No, my problem is with your attempt to play advertiser on this board.
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| The simple answer which you fail to accept is that I don't have any financial interest in my comments about those companies. |
With your dishonest approach to posting I have simply fail to believe you as to this assertion.
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| I note that you did not pass on anything about your experience with this company that would support your suggestions here on this thread that only those who support them must be paid by them, |
I have no experience with NT and that is why I didn't make a comment. My comment was aimed at your logic and I just used your logic to come up with this conclusion. My comment was aimed at your flawed and less than impartial defense of a company and owner who has been the subject of allegations on this board and who also on this board has been accused by the person who said that this deplorable action took place.
Clark, you need to start with an honest approach to your postings. |
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nolefan
Joined: 14 Jan 2004
Posts: 1458
Location: on the run
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:43 am Post subject: |
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I guess it's back to that old ball and chain yet again
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therock wrote:
Do a search of New Times posts, generally they are negative.........but the funny thing almost every negative story about New Times, nolefan has defended them. They most be paying him.
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I have a consistent track record of defending NT because of my experience with them and the stuff I've seen happen in their office the times I was in Shijiazhuang. Unlike many comments here, mine are based on first hand knowledge and experience.
However, as I mentioned before, there is basically no incentive to give positive feedback or comments because one end up facing all kind on unwarranted accusations. In my case, I no longer teach nor am I involved in ESL in China! This has been the case for almost 2 years so what possible interest could I have in defending NT if I didn't believe in them ????
Now, it seems like people are quick to forget and come back around with old accusations all over again when they shouldn't! I'll kindly point everyone's attention to this post from 2004 about sfarkas' dealings with NT where they allegedly wronged him:
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=16734&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
and I rest my case!
Clark, props to you mate! I admire your patience in dealing with all the nay-sayers.
Over and out! |
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Sinobear
Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 1269
Location: Purgatory
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:03 am Post subject: |
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Nolfan and Clark:
Just my observations:
1. The positive experiences with NT seem to be only from the MALE perspective. Perhaps females have a slightly different view.
2. Clark, you still continue to disect other people'e posts point by point. Many threads are almost bloated with repetiveness. Can't you either just stick to your guns or forget it? You spar with Vikuk, but what's the point?
3. As for agents, and to keep my post on topic, I've used Abroadchina.org once in the past. They had found me a great position at more than TWICE the salary that (rhymes with Suckland) was paying teachers for less work. I had a Z visa while the (rhymes with Suckland) teachers were brought into China with an L visa and could not (at that school) have it converted to a Z.
I still receive e-mails from AbroadChina. Although I have a great position and am not currently looking for anything, I find that AbroadChina has continuously sent me e-mails that offer positions in the range that I had been seeking in the past. I don't pay them, they don't pay me, but they certainly pay attention to the needs of the people who use their service (my experience, anyhoo).
4. I think if either of you receive ANY kind of payment from ANY kind of agent/recruiter/for-pay source in China, you should be up-front about it and either delete any references to said payees from your signatures, or be officially designated as a "paid-per-post" poster on Dave's.
Cheers! |
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therock
Joined: 31 Jul 2005
Posts: 1266
Location: China
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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Now nolefan claims he has no business relationship with New Times or Mr. Dou at this moment.
| nolefan wrote: |
| I was one of the earliest defenders of New Times and would still use them if I was looking for a teaching job now! I did come with them more than 3 years ago and have had an ongoing relationship with the company from arrival until middle of last year. |
However if one takes a look at this website they will see our honest friend nolefan in a business relationship with Mr. Dou. $550 a month for a homestay. I wonder how much the family gets????????
http://www.insightchina.cn/about.php
But wait there is more. Our true honest friend nolefan with another business venture with the deceiving Dou.
http://www.sinocamps.com/about.html
Now there is nothing wrong with doing business, however doing business with a company that has a bad reputation we can see where the incentive is to defend New Times. |
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