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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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 Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| arioch36 wrote: |
| The most disgusting new trend is US schools starting to play the game of joint venture schools in CHina where the "student" pays 3 to 4 times much tuition, with the prize of an eventual US diploma no matter how poor the student |
Yes, that is a disturbing trend.
The prostitution of education. It was just a matter of time I suppose. |
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bendan
Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 739
Location: North China
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| Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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| arioch36 wrote: |
They also rely heavily on euro students, ..
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Where did you get that idea from? EU students are a burden to the UK system.
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Had no idea about the rest of Bendan's argument , you seemed to be arguing against your self ... standards equaling discrimination against 3rd world countries is your gist? |
Of course not, but comprehension has never been your strong point, has it?
Crap students from developed countries can get into the US quite easily, but equally crap students from China and other developing countries find it hard to get a visa. How is that about standards? |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:23 am Post subject: |
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| bendan wrote: |
| Crap students from developed countries can get into the US quite easily, but equally crap students from China and other developing countries find it hard to get a visa. How is that about standards? |
Are you confusing visa issuance with college admission? |
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bendan
Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 739
Location: North China
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:06 am Post subject: |
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| Joe C. wrote: |
| bendan wrote: |
| Crap students from developed countries can get into the US quite easily, but equally crap students from China and other developing countries find it hard to get a visa. How is that about standards? |
Are you confusing visa issuance with college admission? |
No, but I think you are.
I know lots of Chinese students who were accepted by US colleges but refused visas. Students from developed countries don't have such difficulties. I don't know any Chinese students who were refused visas by the UK/Aus after being accepted by universities there (although some probably are).
You've really got to be smoking crack to think that all US colleges have high standards. |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:26 am Post subject: |
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| bendan wrote: |
| Joe C. wrote: |
| bendan wrote: |
| Crap students from developed countries can get into the US quite easily, but equally crap students from China and other developing countries find it hard to get a visa. How is that about standards? |
Are you confusing visa issuance with college admission? |
No, but I think you are.
I know lots of Chinese students who were accepted by US colleges but refused visas. Students from developed countries don't have such difficulties. I don't know any Chinese students who were refused visas by the UK/Aus after being accepted by universities there (although some probably are).
You've really got to be smoking crack to think that all US colleges have high standards. |
You're confused.
I believe it was specifically mentioned that even though one may be accepted by a US university, they were likely to have problems obtaining a visa.
| Joe C. wrote: |
| Because a retarded chimp with a fistfull of cash can get a visa to study in the UK as long as they have an IELTS score above 4. In the US many people have very high TOEFL / IELTS / GRE scores and cannot get a visa. |
I also do not see where it was said that all schools in the US have high standards. Community colleges, for example, in the US have pretty low standards. However, even they come nowhere near UK schools in the process of prostituting education. |
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bendan
Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 739
Location: North China
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:18 am Post subject: |
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| Joe C. wrote: |
I believe it was specifically mentioned that even though one may be accepted by a US university, they were likely to have problems obtaining a visa.
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Yes, if they come from a developing country.
Chinese students choose the UK and Australia because it's easier to get a visa. If it were easy to get a US visa, they'd rather go there, and crappy US colleges would have marketing teams and agents over here grabbing as many as they could get, just like the crappy UK and Australian colleges do now. |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:59 am Post subject: |
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Bendan
| Quote: |
arioch36 wrote:
| Quote: |
| They also rely heavily on euro students, .. |
Where did you get that idea from? EU students are a burden to the UK system. |
Really a waste of time, but if Bendan read my next statement, I said what ???
Chinese are the cash cow. However the schools needs bodies period, and Euro students are also a large % of the students body
But again , the Chinese are the cash cow
I can repeat what I wrote again , if you need |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:05 am Post subject: |
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In fact the mission of community colleges in America is to have low admission standards, to offer opportunities to students who would never be admitted to a 4 yr uni
I went to a 2 yr community college ... saved about 10,000$ or more because I then only had to go to the uni for 2 yrs. So I am living proof of the Community colleges low
standard.
I would want to clarify that point. Most community college have excellent standards for their purpose and in New York at least, ar a very positive influence. Let's distinguish this feom a school like .. I believe it is Marshall? a four year uni in the states that is cashing in by allowing CHinese students to pay four times as much to get their degree from a "US college" Makes me sick
I will have to double check to see if Marshall is the one i am thinking of
Last edited by arioch36 on Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:35 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| arioch36 wrote: |
In fact the mission of community colleges in America is to have low admission standards, to offer opportunities to students who would never be admitted to a 4 yr uni
I wen to a 2 yr community college ... saved about 10,000$ or more because I then only had to go to the uni for 2 yrs. So I am living proof of the Community colleges low
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I would want to clarify that point. Most community college have excelletn standards for their purpose and in New York at least, ar a very positive influence. Let's distinguish this feom a school like .. I believe it is Marshall? a four year uni in the states that is cashing in by allowing CHinese students to pay four times as much to get their degree from a "US college" Makes me sick
I will have to double check to see if Marshall is the one i am thinking of |
Yes, you are absolutely correct and if I implied that community colleges were somehow useless or a sham, I am sorry. |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| Joe C. wrote: |
| arioch36 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| GAC is DOA. Logistics and candidates themselves are unhappy with a test that takes 3 & 1/2+ hours. I'd like to see anybody process and test 900 candidates a day using GAC. Monkey humping a football, anybody? |
Are you confusing GAC with the test ACT ... which all GAC students are forced to take, so that GAC Sydney can continue to use the ACT name? I tell my students that the ACT est has little value really. GAC is a 36 week plus curriculum that is actually pretty good compared to alternatives.
If only GAC could keep their standards high. The program is the answer to the testing system. You can pay someone to take a test, fake records etc. And witness China/humanity, even if some get caught, it will continue
GAC, you would have to pay someone for 9 months to go to school every day from 7:30 in the morning to 9:00 at night with just Sunday off, and sat afternoon. The uni gets the test scores confirmed through GAC, not a middleman |
But the issue is that schools will not do anything to cripple the cash cow. Candidates don't want to sit a 3 & 1/2 hour IELTS much less a 9-month course. As good as GAC sounds, I'd be willing to bet it won't become anywhere near as universally accepted as IELTS or TOEFL. |
ok joe, so it's not just 3 & 1/2 hour with that GAC as you seemed to have said when you quoted me on "page 6". yes, it takes 9 or even more than 9 months. it should really depend on the students' capabilities how long it takes with the GAC program.
GAC doesn't just sound good. it is good for those students that plan to join western unis. IELTS or TOEFL grade only the proficiency of english language and they do not go into the depth of what the foreign students need in western unis. don't you bet your money joe, because IELTS is losing its grounds and that on its own turf. 
these above proficiency exams are good enough for students to western highschools or for those that wish to immigrate or further join the western unis' programs such as the GAC offers abroad. GAC itself is in a different league than those proficiency exams. it's directly connected to the western uni education. so, joe, don't you gamble there! 
western educational system differs from some other countries' educational systems, and china is one of these countries that differs greatly. chinese students that pass successfully their proficiency exams of either IELTS or TOEFL are often bound for failure abroad. i hope you guys know how many chinese students drop out of their western unis after they pass these proficiency exams on mainland. or, how they become a burden to their educators in western unis. western higher educational institutions are well aware of this issue, although still willing to accept the BURDEN since it comes with profits.
having said the word profits reminded me of some of my recent GAC graduates that're studying in the USA now. by their US unis, they've been told to (pay) live in their dormitories on the campus...the first year. my former GAC students are now unsure if it is a mandatory or not. well, they've got to pay a rent of 700-900 US dollars monthly and they share the dormitory with other (or other two) student who also pays. i've just told them to ask the uni about this and move out ASAP. it won't cost them more outside. actually i believe they'll safe. anyway, the point is that unis make their profits on renting to foreign students as it looks. also, books cost up to a 1000 US dollars for all subject they study...even used ones. there you go with profits at unis
bendan, for chinese students it's not "easy" to get to UK now, although i agree with australia.
| Quote: |
| I know lots of Chinese students who were accepted by US colleges but refused visas. Students from developed countries don't have such difficulties. I don't know any Chinese students who were refused visas by the UK/Aus after being accepted by universities there (although some probably are). |
these refusals that you are refering to in US might've been connected to NOT ENOUGH FUNDS IN CHINESE BANK ACCOUNTS. i've had such student whose father, a businessman, decided to withdraw the cash out "temporarily" for his business and it happened to have been at the same time as the student's visa application was processed. the consulate checked with the bank. otherwise, i disagree with you on the topic.
my observation is that many chinese students are now applying for the US unis and few for UK or canada. canada's tough on visas and one of my student's has just been refused her visa to canada. even the money may not help in, to chinese the "cold country".
cheers and beers to the cold country that seems to keep its integrity on the issue of student visa applications |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:34 am Post subject: |
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Many American unis do require first and/or 2nd year students to live on campus. A great step up in quality for these students. If near a big city, then the rent for the dorm is a good deal. Where I lived, small city USA (and the capital of the state), Rent was cheaper outside the school, lots of 2 familhouses (upstairs one ap't and downstairs one apt) usually 3 bdrm.
Much nicer for many, but the student has to learn many skills that these CHinese students don't know ... like how to buy groceries and cook food in a kitchen. They often ruin the nice kitchen in a nice ap't by cooking oil at a high eat, splattering it everywhere. Also I had many CHinese friends ignorant that when taking a shower in a bathroom with a wooden floor next to the tub/shower facility, that is imperative to close the shower curtain. They have to set up their electric bill,..etc...These are things that they must learn to do eventually, but the school here couldn't care less about teaching them, and they get to their new school, and instead of starting with a run, they are quickly bogged down with the impossibility of everything.
Where I went to uni, 3 bdrm house about $900, but still living in the dorm for one of these GAC students would be a good idea for the 1st year |
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mondrian
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 658
Location: "was that beautiful coastal city in the NE of China"
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Joe C. wrote: |
| arioch36 wrote: |
| I am sure Joe can correct me, I believe the rule is that you can't work for a place like GAC that has many students testing for IELTS, and still be an IELTS examiners, though I believe teaching at a uni and being an IELTS examiner is fine |
You are right. It is not allowed to teach, tutor or work in any manner related to IELTS outside of the BC. Many, however, do tutor on the side and the BC never finds out. |
This needs a bit of clarification. You cannot teach...... IELTS related material and be an IELTS Examiner in China. While examining an IELTS session in Shanghai a while ago, the Centre was short of examiners, so they flew a spare body in from Thailand who was an IELTS teacher.
Here in the UK I can both teach and examine IELTS without any problems.
In China if the BC see a commercial school's advert in the local Chinese paper offering an IELTS examiner as one of their IELTS teachers, they will investigate, and they will withdraw the IELTS contract.
Having said all that examining IELTS in China a a great life with plenty of travel! |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:09 am Post subject: |
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| mondrian wrote: |
| Joe C. wrote: |
| arioch36 wrote: |
| I am sure Joe can correct me, I believe the rule is that you can't work for a place like GAC that has many students testing for IELTS, and still be an IELTS examiners, though I believe teaching at a uni and being an IELTS examiner is fine |
You are right. It is not allowed to teach, tutor or work in any manner related to IELTS outside of the BC. Many, however, do tutor on the side and the BC never finds out. |
This needs a bit of clarification. You cannot teach...... IELTS related material and be an IELTS Examiner in China. While examining an IELTS session in Shanghai a while ago, the Centre was short of examiners, so they flew a spare body in from Thailand who was an IELTS teacher.
Here in the UK I can both teach and examine IELTS without any problems.
In China if the BC see a commercial school's advert in the local Chinese paper offering an IELTS examiner as one of their IELTS teachers, they will investigate, and they will withdraw the IELTS contract.
Having said all that examining IELTS in China a a great life with plenty of travel! |
When hard-up for examiners, even Beijing has been known to employ non-fully-certified examiners.
Actually, it is an UCLES policy that an active examiner cannot tutor or teach IELTS related courses. The logic behind this goes to the fact that any examination results are invalid if the examiner and candidate have known each other in any type of social, business or classroom context. UCLES policy is that an examiner must declare and not examine any candidate that they know. No BC organization would want to employ an examiner only to have that person unable to properly examine a percentage of all possible candidates. Then there is the appearance of favoritism -- whether or not it actually exists -- that concerns UCLES and the BC. Personally, with all the problems ethics probes against the BC now, I wonder why they'd even care.
There are exceptions in the UK (and some other countries, too) for examiners who teach IELTS under programs run directly by UCLES, Cambridge University, the BC or institutions that they cooperate with (Oxford comes to mind). |
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DaXueSheng
Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:09 am Post subject: |
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Mondrian "You cannot teach...... IELTS related material and be an IELTS Examiner in China." The reason being....
How about mercenary, unethical, unprofessional examiners? What a sorry bunch of ********, ****** *** *arts. Mondrian and Joe C know what I mean?
"Beijing has been known to employ non-fully-certified examiners." Not unusual in China. A school that advertises on this site hires blue eyed blondes to give English classes (whether they can speak English or not). They are given the elementary classes to teach and the punters can't tell the difference.
What happens when an articulate, intelligent Ielts candidate meets an inarticulate, unintelligent examiner with an incomprehensible accent (native or not)? |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:09 am Post subject: |
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| DaXueSheng wrote: |
| How about mercenary, unethical, unprofessional examiners? What a sorry bunch of ********, ****** *** *arts. Mondrian and Joe C know what I mean? |
Exactly. BC standards are lower than whale poop and, though most examiners are competent and professional, there are quite a few who are not. Oh, how I wish I could name names.
| DaXueSheng wrote: |
| "Beijing has been known to employ non-fully-certified examiners." Not unusual in China. A school that advertises on this site hires blue eyed blondes to give English classes (whether they can speak English or not). They are given the elementary classes to teach and the punters can't tell the difference. |
UCLES does have a set of minimal standards and the supposedly required passing of moron-level IELTS training, but the problem is there are quite a few who cannot pass the training. In times of great demand -- which happens all too frequently -- even these rejects are employed to examine candidates.
| DaXueSheng wrote: |
| What happens when an articulate, intelligent Ielts candidate meets an inarticulate, unintelligent examiner with an incomprehensible accent (native or not)? |
That, unfortunately, happens more often than you'd think. |
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