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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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 Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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| RollingStone wrote: |
I certainly agree with the points made about courses being cancelled. However, it seems to me that you are both assuming that if a course is cancelled it is due to non-enrollment in the school. While that may be a part of the reason I would suggest the main reason is that students simply are not interested in said course or are changing their track - taking different courses, major etc.
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Actually in my examples it was due to students dropping out of uni completely. Many decided after a semester or two that it simply wasn't for them. Others decided to take time out from studies or move elsewhere for whatever reasons. And in the case of my final year unit that got cancelled, one girl was pregnant so left to have her kid and the other couldn't hack being apart from her boyfriend that she met whilst we were on ERASMUS so decided to complete her studies in Spain so she could be with him. There were supposed to be 6 of us doing that unit and the minimum number required for it run was 5. If the 2 had left after the unit had already started (i.e after they had paid for the final semester) it wouldn't have affected us, but they didn't, so the unit got dropped.
The first year at most UK unis sees a spectacular drop out rate. Second year onwards normally sees a lot less, but that smaller number tends to have a much greater effect on which units get dropped or which classes get merged. Either way, merging or dropping of classes means there are teachers losing their hours.
BTW, for us, as long as you complete the entire unit along with any assessments required, the credits can normally be kept if you take some leave from studies (within a reasonable time frame) or even transferred on to other unis if you decide to take a similar degree elsewhere. |
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RollingStone
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Posts: 138
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| Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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uh huh.. well! there ya go!
amazing what one can learn on these here in-ter-net for-ums.. apparently there is not much diff between eikaiwa and queens university.. who-da thunk it! 
I wonder if the 6 figure profs there will be forced into `poster making` (without pay!) any time soon? 
 !!! |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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A major difference between eikaiwa and university is that eikaiwa students don't graduate. This leaves them without a credential (a degree) to pass along to an employer for the necessary next step -- employment.
Go ahead and mix metaphors about the two, but this is a huge difference.
Another.
Class size.
Another.
Entrance exams needed (most of the time) to be accepted to universities.
Oh, and as for eikaiwa teachers' roles being a blur between instructor and salesperson, I think that's a bit exaggerated. Why? Because although the teacher is serving as some sort of sales pitch because of their character, personality, whatever, it's only in principle most of the time that they are sales people. Most of the time, they do not stand on the sidewalks and hand out leaflets, draw up marketing plans, or discuss lesson sales options with prospective students.
Universities can be considered to rely on retention, of course. If they don't, they can't stay alive (like any business, e.g. eikaiwa). Universities do this in 3 ways:
providing quality education
providing interesting and appealing extracurricular activities
not failing students (much)
Of course, eikaiwa students come and go more frequently. That is the nature of the business. |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| RollingStone wrote: |
uh huh.. well! there ya go!
amazing what one can learn on these here in-ter-net for-ums.. apparently there is not much diff between eikaiwa and queens university.. who-da thunk it!
I wonder if the 6 figure profs there will be forced into `poster making` (without pay!) any time soon?
!!! |
Where are you getting all your "facts" from? What are you basing your assumptions on? Maybe you should just accept when you are mistaken or when there are cases that don't follow what you believe to be true instead of making sarcastic comebacks which are also flawed...
http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storyCode=209290§ioncode=26
which if you don't want to read, basically talks about how 5 figure salaries were being used to attract professors to UK unis in 2007. I doubt it has gone up with the current economic crisis.
Not all uni teachers are professors and it is often the lower teachers who get hit by class sizes dropping. In my second year, all the Spanish majors started a pertition because they found out that one of our fav oral instrctors was going to be out of the job once we went on ERASMUS because there simply wasn't enough students incoming and in the current lower year to warrant having so many oral teachers. If she had been a teacher of any of the other three class types or also qualified to lecture or do seminars for another unit (or simply had some title attached to her name!), she wouldn't have been let so easily. But as a new, comparatively inexperienced teacher who hadn't yet gotten her doctorate, she was expendable. |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| Oh, and as for eikaiwa teachers' roles being a blur between instructor and salesperson, I think that's a bit exaggerated. Why? Because although the teacher is serving as some sort of sales pitch because of their character, personality, whatever, it's only in principle most of the time that they are sales people. Most of the time, they do not stand on the sidewalks and hand out leaflets, draw up marketing plans, or discuss lesson sales options with prospective students. |
Many eikaiwa teachers are expected to approach, pitch and sell goods to students, usually books and CD's. They must meet sales targets, are given training in sales techniques and discuss which students are easy targets for a sale. Anyone that's worked for Aeon in particular should recognise that description.
Many teachers are also expected to hand out fliers and indeed prepare flyers, in their down-time.
Even when I went for a job at BEO, a company that specialises in university preperation abroad, the importance of sales and marketing was flagged up as a key part of the job, despite the fact that they considered themselves a more 'academic' establishment and expected staff to have relevant MA's.
| RollingStone wrote: |
| I certainly agree with the points made about courses being cancelled. However, it seems to me that you are both assuming that if a course is cancelled it is due to non-enrollment in the school. While that may be a part of the reason I would suggest the main reason is that students simply are not interested in said course or are changing their track - taking different courses, major etc. |
I'm talking about classes/courses being closed because of poor student retention. This could be for any number of reasons, but it's a major issue in further and higher education as well as the private sector. Teaching staff are often expected to meet retention targets which often effect their end of year assessment. Likewise it effects funding for courses the following year as I said. |
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RollingStone
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Posts: 138
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| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| womblingfree wrote: |
Many eikaiwa teachers are expected to approach, pitch and sell goods to students, usually books and CD's. They must meet sales targets, are given training in sales techniques and discuss which students are easy targets for a sale. Anyone that's worked for Aeon in particular should recognise that description.
Many teachers are also expected to hand out fliers and indeed prepare flyers, in their down-time.
Even when I went for a job at BEO, a company that specialises in university preperation abroad, the importance of sales and marketing was flagged up as a key part of the job, despite the fact that they considered themselves a more 'academic' establishment and expected staff to have relevant MA's. |
Dont even get me started on that! Man, you cant even walk downtown anymore without being harassed by professors handing out flyers advertizing discount tuition fees for limited time only! The worst are the faculties of Engineering and law.
| RollingStone wrote: |
| I certainly agree with the points made about courses being cancelled. However, it seems to me that you are both assuming that if a course is cancelled it is due to non-enrollment in the school. While that may be a part of the reason I would suggest the main reason is that students simply are not interested in said course or are changing their track - taking different courses, major etc. |
| womblingfree wrote: |
I'm talking about classes/courses being closed because of poor student retention. This could be for any number of reasons, but it's a major issue in further and higher education as well as the private sector. Teaching staff are often expected to meet retention targets which often effect their end of year assessment. Likewise it effects funding for courses the following year as I said. |
Pardon me, but I added the underline to your original quote, just to remind us both that we are actually saying the same thing. We got on this topic comparing eikaiwa to other education sectors when someone suggested that they were very similar. I took the position they are not even remotely similar. If you look at the part I have underlined you notice that you are talking about courses, and course retention. Absolutely agree with you.. if 20 students sign up and 3 remain then perhaps the course will be cancelled or dropped entirely the following year. This effects contract-renewal for the profs involved. Absolutely agree with you there. But, those 17 students may have gone into labour or moved to Spain to be with their boyfriends (as suggested by someone else) OR they may have decided the course sucked and replaced it with another course OR changed programs OR, I admit, changed schools or gotten jobs etc. The eikaiwa student that drops his course has obviously not changed English for Engineering; he is no longer enrolled. Period. Just adding a bit of perhaps meaningful context to this discussion. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| womblingfree wrote: |
Many eikaiwa teachers are expected to approach, pitch and sell goods to students, usually books and CD's. They must meet sales targets, are given training in sales techniques and discuss which students are easy targets for a sale. Anyone that's worked for Aeon in particular should recognise that description.
Many teachers are also expected to hand out fliers and indeed prepare flyers, in their down-time. |
I didn't say that none of them do that. I said most do not do that.
Rolling Stone,
Still not going to answer my questions? |
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RollingStone
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Posts: 138
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| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| seklarwia wrote: |
| RollingStone wrote: |
uh huh.. well! there ya go!
amazing what one can learn on these here in-ter-net for-ums.. apparently there is not much diff between eikaiwa and queens university.. who-da thunk it!
I wonder if the 6 figure profs there will be forced into `poster making` (without pay!) any time soon?
!!! |
Where are you getting all your "facts" from? What are you basing your assumptions on? Maybe you should just accept when you are mistaken or when there are cases that don't follow what you believe to be true instead of making sarcastic comebacks which are also flawed...
http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storyCode=209290§ioncode=26
which if you don't want to read, basically talks about how 5 figure salaries were being used to attract professors to UK unis in 2007. I doubt it has gone up with the current economic crisis.
Not all uni teachers are professors and it is often the lower teachers who get hit by class sizes dropping. In my second year, all the Spanish majors started a pertition because they found out that one of our fav oral instrctors was going to be out of the job once we went on ERASMUS because there simply wasn't enough students incoming and in the current lower year to warrant having so many oral teachers. If she had been a teacher of any of the other three class types or also qualified to lecture or do seminars for another unit (or simply had some title attached to her name!), she wouldn't have been let so easily. But as a new, comparatively inexperienced teacher who hadn't yet gotten her doctorate, she was expendable. |
Sorry to hear about the phd candidate not getting rehired. phd candidate means student; its been my experience that candidates - those without degree - are essentially teacher assistants.
Anyway, the CONTEXT (there`s that word again) of this part of the discussion concerns comparing universities to eikaiwa (i keep having to remind people of this). I did not say ALL profs earned 6 figures, just alluded that at least SOME profs at Queens (and most elsewhere) earn 6 figures. Now, that hot little news clip you provided mentioned 80k pounds, just for signing. Thats 6 figures here. What is astonishing is that you had to hunt the net in order to *prove* that profs start at 5 figures (otherwise I guess I would just deny it huh...?). Kind of like if someone said something about `the Libyan terrorists` you would scour the internet to find evidence showing that `nuh uh.. not all Libyans are terrorists` and then, so pleased with yourself, stick out your tongue. 
Thisll blow your mind -- did you know that here entry level for a prof is around $70k+ per annum (dont worry about it, its just a fancy word for `year`)? Of course, the trend in universities is to increase contracted payrolls and I have heard of profs that load up on a half doz courses or so.
Anyway, back to context -- how many eikaiwa instructors start at 57k pounds (thats $100k here)? Standard is it for eikaiwa?
Its unfortunately typical for some forum members to peck uselessly away by thinking they have *scored* by *pointing something out* and for the life of them they seem wholly unable of maintaining grasp on the overall context. |
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RollingStone
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Posts: 138
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| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
Rolling Stone,
Still not going to answer my questions? |
I dont see the point. I try to have a somewhat serious discussion and your attitude is such that you respond to a reasonable point by clarifying for everyones edification one supposes that indeed, most eikaiwa instructors do not actually *tour* japan but stay in one place.... to use the parlance -- wtf?
Oh, and in the General Discussions forum you are the first to answer a thread asking what the implications are for a high-turnover profession, without even hinting it was anything but. oh further down you mumble something about `near high turnover` in Japan.  Funny though, that you always mention you only answer for Japan as you dont have experience anywhere else, but there you are in whole-hearted agreement with what everyone else on the planet knows - TESL is a high-turnover industry. But in this thread, in this alternate universe, suddenly it is *unclear* that, for most, TESL is high-turnover, impermanent, transient.
Hope that answers your question.  |
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Mr. Kalgukshi
Mod Team
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 6613
Location: Need to know basis only.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Let's get back on topic and off of the personal asides before this thread is derailed resulting in the possibility of sanctions. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:17 am Post subject: |
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| RollingStone wrote: |
| We got on this topic comparing eikaiwa to other education sectors when someone suggested that they were very similar. I took the position they are not even remotely similar. |
Have you ever worked in both of them? If you had, you would know that they are indeed similar in some ways (the differences I have already laid out earlier).
They both teach a lot of conversational English, for one. In fact, the style and often the textbooks used in both are the same. That's universities in Japan anyway. I don't know your experience, but that has been mine.
What is your experience with this in Japan?
| Quote: |
| Anyway, back to context -- how many eikaiwa instructors start at 57k pounds (thats $100k here)? Standard is it for eikaiwa? |
That's 8.5 million J yen. Certainly not standard or even close for any eikaiwa. Who said uni teachers and eikaiwa instructors made the same anyway? |
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RollingStone
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Posts: 138
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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Those were the only differences you could think of?
I get the impression you are talking about conversational classes at universities compared to private language schools....
Universities were introduced as a comparison generally - not strictly conversation classes but as a sector. For consecutive posts I have been discussing universities in the general sense, as a sector. Please stay on topic. If you wish to introduce a variation of the definition of universities used up to this point then do so by acknowledging that it is a variation. Do not pretend that it has been the definition used up to this point.
Mods, if you wish to sanction someone for mentioning mere facts then that is your prerogative. But at least know the facts. I am trying to have a discussion that merely suggested that the high-turnover rate of eikaiwa hinders the ability for employees to gain leverage. The individual that keeps `rebutting` this rather modest, uncontroversial suggestion simultaneously admits elsewhere in another thread the very thing I am. Therefore, I do not understand what the motivation could be behind such posts. But they do take on the form of baiting, argumentative contrariness. I know, one should not take the bait. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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RS,
Stop being so argumentative. It's childish. You asked for differences, and I gave some.
At least I answer questions asked of me. |
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Mr. Kalgukshi
Mod Team
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 6613
Location: Need to know basis only.
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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Contentious bickering gets threads locked or removed. It's also been known to result in sanctions and especially when the members involved have previously been warned or received sanctions for the same thing.
If you have been involved in such activity on this thread, you may assume that sanctions are being considered given that there was a previous warning posted in this thread. |
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