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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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 Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| GambateBingBangBOOM wrote: |
| Glenski wrote: |
2. What do JET ALTs do after they return to their home countries related to supporting JET or something related? Compare those who have spent 1, 2 or 3 years on the program.
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Not entirely a fair question, IMO. |
Oh, I think it is fair! Some people will say / have said that JET ALTs and their homeland benefit when the ALTs return and do whatever to spread knowledge about the program or Japan or EFL, etc. Granted, IMO that is a very small number, but the question is still fair.
And, thanks for contributing to the thread, Gambatte. I didn't expect anyone to answer any of my rhetorical questions. Just food for thought in the debate. Perhaps other people can add other questions.
The trick is to get these questions to CLAIR or JET or MEXT and get fair answers. |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:56 am Post subject: |
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| razorhideki wrote: |
Gambate: I'd be the first to agree that JET needs to be reformed-I've posted at least one thread to that effect. More must be expected of JETs.
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Why? Don' just claim it. Justify it. Why must more be expected of JETs? Why is more not expected of JTEs? Why is more not expected of the education system in general? Why single out JETs?
I don't think more is required of JETs. I think *different things* should be required of them. The program should be changing faster than it already is.
| Quote: |
That said, in the meantime, surely the crap that dispatch ALTs are put through is NOT the way to go-surely "cheaper is better" is a self-defeating proposition...would you not agree?
And to suggest that many JETs are "treated like crap" is an unsubstantiated claim. Of all the jobs I've ever had, at home or in E. Asia doing the EFL thing, JET was the best I've ever had. Bar none.
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Just as GBB's claim is unsubstantiated, yours is equally anecdotal. Some certainly are treated like crap. There were/are a couple of schools in Iwate that are famous for treating their ALTs like crap. But most don't. Moot really because Iwate has moved most of them to dispatch.
The only part that annoys me in this whole discussion is that people are railing on JET ALTS as if they were the ones at fault. That, IMO, misses the point. JET ALTs are in little/no position to have any say in what they do. They're bottom of the heap. It's like blaming the janitor that the students can't speak English: it's not the janitor you should be looking at, it's the school system. Does JET waste money? Yup, sure does.
yaddayaddayadda... |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:05 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| GambateBingBangBOOM wrote: |
| Glenski wrote: |
2. What do JET ALTs do after they return to their home countries related to supporting JET or something related? Compare those who have spent 1, 2 or 3 years on the program.
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Not entirely a fair question, IMO. |
Oh, I think it is fair! Some people will say / have said that JET ALTs and their homeland benefit when the ALTs return and do whatever to spread knowledge about the program or Japan or EFL, etc. Granted, IMO that is a very small number, but the question is still fair.
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So propose a measure for it. The question is fair in so far as you can point to it not delivering on some metric that is agreed upon. The onus is upon you.
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And, thanks for contributing to the thread, Gambatte. I didn't expect anyone to answer any of my rhetorical questions. Just food for thought in the debate. Perhaps other people can add other questions.
The trick is to get these questions to CLAIR or JET or MEXT and get fair answers.
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No, the trick is avoid asking loaded questions. I have yet to see anyone actually propose a rational assessment of the program.
People like you (ie. people that have a history of disliking the program and denigrating it without much in the way of real experience or interaction with it) have the habit of demanding it perform against measures that it hasn't claimed to fulfill, while at the same time ignoring the actual structural and systemic problems that exist preventing it from being the thing you want it to be. (And that is not, before anyone leaps in to claim it, an ad hominem attack: re-read it if you think it was.) |
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TokyoLiz
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1548
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:20 am Post subject: |
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G Cthulhu wrote
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| I have yet to see anyone actually propose a rational assessment of the program. |
Has anyone seen any quantitative research on the JET Program's benefits?
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People like you (ie. people that have a history of disliking the program and denigrating it without much in the way of real experience or interaction with it) have the habit of demanding it perform against measures that it hasn't claimed to fulfill, while at the same time ignoring the actual structural and systemic problems that exist preventing it from being the thing you want it to be. |
It's not just people who dislike the program who fall into the trap you describe above. Many JET alumni and supporters do this, too, when they suggest ways to improve the JET Program.
As you note, the systemic problems, and I'd say, lack of a rational, economically and pedagogically sound structure needs to be addressed before anything can be done with JET. It's a muddle. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:25 am Post subject: |
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| G Cthulhu wrote: |
| No, the trick is avoid asking loaded questions. |
I don't feel my questions were "loaded". How do you see that they are?
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| I have yet to see anyone actually propose a rational assessment of the program. |
Including you, dear friend, who wrote that different things should be expected of JETs, yet did you list any of them or how they could be implemented?
I didn't say how things should be measured, perhaps in the detail that you seem to want. (i.e., should CLAIR or JET do the evaluating? Should MEXT? What about an outside source? Give us your wisdom on that G Cthulhu. You're in the program and should have some opinions other than belaboring us who ask hypothetical questions.)
That's not my place to say who should do the measuring. I asked instead what (I felt) should be measured. |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:57 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| G Cthulhu wrote: |
| No, the trick is avoid asking loaded questions. |
I don't feel my questions were "loaded". How do you see that they are?
| Quote: |
| I have yet to see anyone actually propose a rational assessment of the program. |
Including you, dear friend, who wrote that different things should be expected of JETs, yet did you list any of them or how they could be implemented?
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Bothered to read any of the other posts in the thread? Or do you want everything repeated for you every time?
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I didn't say how things should be measured, perhaps in the detail that you seem to want. (i.e., should CLAIR or JET do the evaluating? Should MEXT? What about an outside source? Give us your wisdom on that G Cthulhu. You're in the program and should have some opinions other than belaboring us who ask hypothetical questions.)
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You're the one demanding things and saying they need to be changed: put up or shut up (dear friend).
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That's not my place to say who should do the measuring. I asked instead what (I felt) should be measured.
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And I was simply saying that I thought your questions were self serving.
It's called a difference of opinion. Get over it.  |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:03 am Post subject: |
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| TokyoLiz wrote: |
G Cthulhu wrote
| Quote: |
| I have yet to see anyone actually propose a rational assessment of the program. |
Has anyone seen any quantitative research on the JET Program's benefits?
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AFAIK there hasn't been any that covers all the poits people keep asking about. I'd love to see some done. The data can probably be generated if the sources were pulled together.
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| Quote: |
People like you (ie. people that have a history of disliking the program and denigrating it without much in the way of real experience or interaction with it) have the habit of demanding it perform against measures that it hasn't claimed to fulfill, while at the same time ignoring the actual structural and systemic problems that exist preventing it from being the thing you want it to be. |
It's not just people who dislike the program who fall into the trap you describe above. Many JET alumni and supporters do this, too, when they suggest ways to improve the JET Program.
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And I would agree with that statement.
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As you note, the systemic problems, and I'd say, lack of a rational, economically and pedagogically sound structure needs to be addressed before anything can be done with JET. It's a muddle. |
Completely. While it's badly out of date, I think the basic undertone of "Importing diversity" is solid: the various ministry's have/had competing agenda and the result is an on-going lack of direction or accountability. I think the time for JET to move towards a more professional footing for the ALT component is long past. But that doesn't mean *just* the ALT's: they are a component, but in the end, one of the smallest parts.
That said, it *has* been changing in the last few years. Now, some people (including a few here) won't admit it or give it any credit for that, but I think that is positive. |
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razorhideki
Joined: 19 Jan 2010
Posts: 78
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:35 am Post subject: |
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Gambate: Thanks for the reply. I readily admit that it's been more than a few years since I've been on JET. That said, I never once heard the "ESID" mantra when I was on the programme(3 yrs.). In my prefecture, almost everyone(save a few of the usual suspect whiners...spoiled brats who never worked for a living, etc.)seemed very happy w/the programme & the renewal rate was high. Who ARE these JETs ''treated like crap''? Maybe they'd be happier working for GABA or Interac?!
G Cth: For someone who's the supposed JET "expert" here(and I think you've made some very solid posts over the years), you seem to be worked up into bit of a lather here.
Yes, I think more should be expected of JETs, esp. in the way of their backgrounds as criteria for eligibility. To wit: scrap the age limit, require at least a TEFL, encourage EFL vets(regardless of where they've taught before)to apply, have more stringent requirements re.: Jap. lang., culture, etc.
Yeah, change the whole situation re.: JTEs, the whole Jap. education system, YADAYADA! But let's crawl before we walk, shall we? |
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GambateBingBangBOOM
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 2021
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:28 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
It's not just people who dislike the program who fall into the trap you describe [,the habit of demanding it perform against measures that it hasn't claimed to fulfill, while at the same time ignoring the actual structural and systemic problems that exist preventing it from being the thing you want it to be]. Many JET alumni and supporters do this, too, when they suggest ways to improve the JET Program.
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And I would agree with that statement. |
I think people are sort of glossing over that the people who are missing it are the employers themselves.
Employers who have read anything at all about ALTs in Japan (and many haven't even done that, because as my supervisor in JET explained to me, Japanese teachers don't need to read the curriculum, that's why they have a textbook [one that doesn't include an ALT at all- which explains why ALTs are used in the way they are in many {but not ALL} situations in the JET program]) have read,
| the national English curriculum of Japan wrote: |
(2)Upgrading
the teaching
system
Placement of ALTs (5,583 hired through
the JET program, 2,784 hired
independently by regional authorities
(total for 2001/2002: approx. 8,400))
Establishing targets: Aim is for junior-
high and senior-high students to have
native speaker(s) participating in more
than one English class per week.
Promotion of the placement of the
necessary numbers of ALTs to meet this
target (nationwide target: 11,500 ALTs).
Effective utilization of ALTs under the
JET program: Promote the enhanced
utilization of ALTs through using ALTs
in education to promote international
understanding and in foreign language
activities at elementary schools, and
employing ALTs as special part-time
instructors, etc.
Promote hiring of native English
speakers as regular teachers: In order to
attain the above-cited targets, as an
additional measure, 300 foreign instructors
are to be appointed as regular
teachers in junior high schools over the
next 3 years, with a goal of appointing
1,000 foreign instructors in junior high
and senior high schools in the future.
Promote the utilization of human
resources with fluent English-language
abilities living in the local communitiy:
Promote the utilization of members of
society who possess English-language
abilities above a certain level in English
education activities through such
measures as the Gakko Ikiiki Plan (a plan
to invigorate secondary schools) and the
special part-time instructor system.
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http://www.mext.go.jp/english/news/2002/07/020901.htm
That's right! It's nice and useless, especially for people who have been trained since elementary school grade one to follow orders. Period. And why? Because the people who wrote it are people who have been taught from day one to follow orders. Period. There's another thread about an article on Japan's education system that's relevant to this one, but it's not labelled "JET" so it's sitting there dying.
 shameless plug, <<<CLICK NOW!!! DON'T DELAY!!! BE HEARD AROUND THE WORLD!!!>>> for a thread I started
Oh! And also,
| Quote: |
h)In accordance with the students' situation and the contents of teaching materials,
consideration should be given toward the effective use of computers,
communication networks, education aids, etc., and toward obtaining the
cooperation of native speakers etc. Teachers should innovate in terms of learning
formats, incorporating pair work, group work, etc. as appropriate. |
http://www.mext.go.jp/english/shotou/030301.htm
Yep. Awesome. Just. Awesome.
And that's about it. That's what the national curriculum says, and that's what actually matters. BoEs and teachers don't want to get in trouble, and they won't so long as they can say 'pursuant to document A, B and or C... ' Anything not from the government itself is not from the actual chain of command, and is therefore irrelevant. The JET program's official goals etc are great, but employers (believe that they) are free to totally ignore that if they want (and maybe they are, I have no idea, I don't even think it really matters because nobody is actually going to call them on it even if they aren't). The ALT is at the bottom of that chain of command and can change nothing at all, and that's what happens because the employers don't want to change anything.
So JET can change it's goals etc, but the bottom line is that employers could be admonished and told to do what the JET program is 'supposed to do' (and while they're at it, tell them not to hire from dispatch companies etc) but until not doing what the government says is actually outlawed, schools / BoEs will be found out if they don't do it (as opposed to saying "sure!" and then not doing it), and there are actual consequences that schools/ BoEs will not be able to cover up, nothing will change.
Razor,
| razorhideki wrote: |
Who ARE these JETs ''treated like crap''? Maybe they'd be happier working for GABA or Interac?!
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'JET' isn't treating people poorly. Their employers or JTEs or other teachers or other people they are forced to come into contact because of their position are. It wouldn't matter if the people doing the job got that job through JET or Interac or any other dispatch company. It's the people that they actually work with. Same with most other jobs. The difference is that JET has prefectural advisors to call and help them when things get too ridiculous- some of them are great, some aren't. Dispatch companies will not help you unless there is no risk to them. Most people don't know how to get in touch with the local labour standards office, or join the union. And so, as has been pointed out, many of the worst ones are moving to dispatch companies. That way nobody does anything about the way the foreigner is being treated, or how the next foreigner will likely be treated there either (when it isn't just some guy who has decided that he/she doesn't like that particular foreigner, but none of the other Japanese people will tell them to lay off the foreigner, because it looks like, and very likely is, racism). |
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starteacher
Joined: 25 Feb 2009
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Plenty of passion, not enough substance. |
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razorhideki
Joined: 19 Jan 2010
Posts: 78
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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Gambate: I don't recall ever posting that JET ALTs worked for JET. In fact, they don't even work for CLAIR, even though a few of the university "educated" JETs I knew seemed to be under that impression. Of course, every JET works for the BOE or whatever org. that's actually on the JET's contract. HOWEVER...being on JET(and Gambate must know this)guarantees a relatively uniform, high standard regarding salaries, subsidized rent, life insurance, paid airfare, minimum no. of paid holidays, NHI, pension refund, paid local taxes, counselling/redress of grievance support, etc., etc. In other words, the stuff of dreams for the average dispatch co. ALT.
As much as I think some JETs don't deserve this(I favour much higher hiring standards for JETs), what's so outrageous about this? That you commit for at least a year in a foreign country & be treated like a human being AND live a decent(not extravagant!)lifestyle AND maybe...just maybe...be able to save a few grand?! No, we can't have that(and I've already predicted that JET will be gone in 5 yrs.), can we? Not with the maverick "heroes" coming over here bragging that they make 190,000/mo., no airfare or NHI, w/exhausting hours, zero job security, 3+grand just for start up costs, etc.
Not just Japan, but all throughout E. Asia, contract conditions for EFLers are going to rat****.
Again, the very few JETs I knew that were unhappy with their lot struck me as the types who'd biatch if they were appointed to the Canadian Senate or just won the 6/49. |
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Mr. Kalgukshi
Mod Team
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 6613
Location: Need to know basis only.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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Several inappropriate and contentious postings have been deleted and one former member is no longer with us.
Trolling and derailing threads are frowned upon here.
Thread locked. |
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