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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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 Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| I was not aware that eikaiwas didn't pay people for the down time. AFAIK, most eikaiwas do. |
Where did I say that eikaiwas didn't pay for (what little) down time they have? If you re-read what I said...
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| ...that most (if not practically all) the things you point out as being negatives about dispatch happen in non-dispatch and eikaiwa positions, too: partial/no pay during holidays (the direct hire position mentioned in this thread is a perfect example)... |
You will clearly see that that was an example of an appauling direct hire position; the one that replaced some of the dispatch positions that we were disussing on this thread. Since you didn't (and still may not) have time to to read back I'll repost a highlight:
| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
| Pitarou wrote: |
| seklarwia wrote: |
| What I don't get is why the labour board is so focused on eliminating team teaching (something that if done properly, could be highly beneficial for the students) when they should be fighting things that ALTs actually care about (such as the classroom hour loophole that most employers use these days to get out of SH co-payments). |
My theory on this matter (and I welcome corrections from those in the know!) is that the instigator was the General Union, not the Labour Board.
The Union figured that ALTs were being squeezed because dispatch agencies have to compete for contracts. So if they could force the Boards of Education to hire teachers directly, the dispatch agencies would be relegated to mere headhunters and ALTs' conditions would improve. And what rational employer would hire "assistants" who cannot take instructions from the people they assist? Alas, bureaucracies are rarely rational.... |
I believe this has happened in Kitakyushu, where hiring of all (of OWLS', at least) ALTs is switching to direct hire with OWLS acting as a broker. Unfortunately (for the ALTs), the terms of employment are even worse - the contracts only pay for eight months! I understand that the salary for an individual ALT will be less than �2,000,000/year.
It sounds like an own goal for the union. |
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| And as for non-dispatch ALTs, about the only one around is JET. Pretty darned good situation, IMO. |
See above. Also seen a number of other direct hire positions last year. The worse offered 180,000/month and no SH!
And since you seem to follow GU news, I find it quite interesting that you didn't realise that there were other non-dispatch positions other than JET and that the GU was fighting because of some of these. For example, a BOE trying to pull a fast one on "direct hire" ALTs: http://www.generalunion.org/alt/news/870
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| This whole quote looks a lot like something you would criticize me for writing. One has to generalize somewhere, ok? You are doing it above and at the same time telling me not to. |
 Go on; I'll bite: Since you know me so well, how would I criticise you if you had written what I did?
And I said that you over generalise. There is a big difference.
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| Are all dispatch agencies terrible? Well, it depends on one's point of view, I guess. If you believe (as some purport) that most operate illegally because they don't have a proper license, then they are all bad in that sense. |
Perfect example of what I just said about over generalisation. Surely a normal generalisation would be that the ones that operate without a license are bad in that sense. And what percentage does this supposed "most" entail? And does that count the multitude of smaller "legit" new companies that sometimes replace the companies that were ousted? Speaking of which, one such company at least now has some of the contracts from my old BOE - yep, sometimes when dispatch companies get kicked, the BOE replaces them with more dispatch companies. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:22 am Post subject: |
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This is becoming more personal and semantic than it needs to be, IMO. I would just like to stick to facts.
Few people give names of dispatch agencies, especially those they consider good ones. I cannot cite any. Perhaps a better tack to take on this thread is for people to offer those names and the conditions they provide which make people consider them so goods. I only wish that when others bring up a negative point that it isn't considered a one-sided post (as seems to be the case so often).
As for the down sides of EFL jobs in Japan, there are many for dispatch and eikaiwa alike, but there are also some differences. Long threads like this make it hard to keep all posters focused. Let's all try to keep that in minds. Perhaps a new thread is needed to tangent off a point or twos, just to minimize the confusions. Just a thought. |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:09 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| Few people give names of dispatch agencies, especially those they consider good ones. I cannot cite any. Perhaps a better tack to take on this thread is for people to offer those names and the conditions they provide which make people consider them so goods. |
If you think about what you are suggesting, you'd realise that that's an awful idea. People may be happy to give some (but by no means all) of the details of their contracts when they work for larger employers because they can do so whilst remaining anonymous.
I know the details of the dispatch company that I referred to that took over in my old BOE only because I know someone who works there, but I'm not going to share them.
It would be as clever as you telling us where you work and all the conditions of your contract because a) it's private info that shouldn't be posted for the world to see and b) the last thing people working for any small employer wants is for loads of people suddenly dropping by and looking for a piece of your action, because if the employer has a too many options, they might be convinced eventually to let you go in exchange for some who they can pay less, etc. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:05 am Post subject: |
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This is crazy.
Nowhere did I say that I felt all details of contracts should be posted. How did you come to that conclusion? I believe the word I used was conditions.
People come here looking for information about jobs all the time. What information do you think they deserve to know?
What is any different between asking for work conditions at ECC or AEON or Interact or on JET (what seems to be the focus for most posters, or at least those on this thread)? People freely give answers to those. You lost me with your thinking.
I would also ask that you stop throwing around little jabs such as "clever". |
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Mr. Kalgukshi
Mod Team
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 6613
Location: Need to know basis only.
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:16 am Post subject: |
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The personal asides and jabs along with addressing the messenger rather than the message must stop immediately.
If not, the thread will. This will be followed by severe sanctions, as there is far too much of this kind of behavior on the Japan forum threads.
If you want to engage in contentious bickering for the sake of engaging in contentious bickering, please find a site that permits it. This one does not.
If you choose not to abide by this friendly suggestion, the decision to go elsewhere will be made for you. |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:04 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| What is any different between asking for work conditions at ECC or AEON or Interact or on JET (what seems to be the focus for most posters, or at least those on this thread)? People freely give answers to those. You lost me with your thinking. |
By conditions I assume you mean things such as salary (and bonuses if applicable), insurance, hours, holiday entitlements, transportation allowance, housing etc. For me those are all things that are contract details.
The difference is that all the big companies (well the less shady ones) make no real secret of those kinds of details. Much of this kind of info can be freely found on their websites, And with the large employers people can be quite free with those details because when a thousand "collegues" or more across the country all have the same/similar contract, people can disclose more details whilst not revealing so much that might identify them for any company spies who might be patrolling forums such as these. Important since some employers don't like their employees openly discussing their contract details; not with their schools (for ALTs), not with each other and certainly not on the web.
But have you noticed that people who work for mom'n'pop eikaiwa are often more hesistant to name their employers? Even when they are being treated like crap, if there is even the slightest chance of reconciliation, these instructors clam up and refuse to name and shame. A good example is the guy who was left to rot in Korea late last year that went through and deleted his posts after telling us that his employer was annoyed about him posting here for advice. He didn't even give the name of the employer and yet they knew.
When you work for a small employer, it isn't wise to share details since it is so much easier for you to be identified.
The other problem is how hiring works for small employers compared to big ones. For big ones you apply through some HQ off somewhere. But take a privately owned eikaiwa for example; you share the details of your employment and the name of you company, somebody in the neighbourhood sees this, likes the sound of your job and drops into your school unannounced. Maybe they get turned away. But there is a chance that the owner takes a shine to them or they offer to take a lower salary than you, etc... next thing you know, your employer decides not to renew your contract or (if they are rather underhanded) suggest they renegotiate your pay in your next contract if you want to keep your job. This kind of situation wouldn't happen with a large employer. The same goes for small-time vs the big dispatchers.
You asked for the names and conditions for better dispatchers. Unfortunately, some of the better dispatch conditions can be found amongst the smaller companies for two main reasons: a) they are more often run by owners who are just trying to make a good living rather than by some greedy CEO up in some big city skyscraper who is more concerned with share holders, profits and buying yet another super car to go infront of their summer estate, b) they don't have in-house legal advisors to help them abuse any and all legal loop-holes and to help wriggle them out of too much trouble plus the funds to pay up should things go pear shaped, so small employers try harder to keep their nose clean.
And for the reasons mentioned above, I'm not going to name the company that I know of and I doubt you are going to find many people willing to effectively serve up their jobs on a platter or risk getting discovered and in trouble with their employer.
Hopefully you understand what I'm saying better now.
And for the record my use of "clever" was not a jab, but a common saying. If something "is/isn't clever" it "is/isn't a good idea". |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:41 am Post subject: |
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I don't understand some of your points, because you seem to be mixing good and bad situations.
If some dispatchers are perceived as good ones, where's the harm in letting others know about them? That includes many/most of the conditions you listed, perhaps even other things (like which branch of a big one is different in treating the employees).
Writing about complaints is not what I was referring to.
So, does anyone feel like divulging names (and perhaps reasons) of good dispatchers? Large or small, if they are good, why keep them secret? People talk about the big Eikaiwa all the time, and people do talk about small companies, but, yes, they hesitate when poor conditions come up, however the point I've been trying to make is sharing info when people know the good stuff, not the complaints. |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:45 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
I don't understand some of your points, because you seem to be mixing good and bad situations.
If some dispatchers are perceived as good ones, where's the harm in letting others know about them? That includes many/most of the conditions you listed, perhaps even other things (like which branch of a big one is different in treating the employees). |
People are told not to disuss contracts, period. I think I even have such a clause written into my contract somewhere. That is not something that is isolated in Japan, either. I can understand why even if you cannot. Sometimes even if a contract is good, if a person/people find out that somebody else is getting a better deal it can cause unrest. Even with my employer, we don't all have identical contracts, but they are similar enough and the differences can be explained logically. Within small companies where employees are dealing directly with the people who have the power to authorise contract changes (i.e. the bosses) there can be significantly more differences for reasons as simple as the boss likes a person more so gives them extra perks to encourage them to stay... but tell that to the other people who probably work just as hard but just don't happen to click in the same way with the boss; how do you suppose they will feel? And if those people do approach the boss and say, "We demand the same as XXX gets!" who do you suppose is going to get into trouble for having spoken about their contract and thus started the unrest in the first place?
| Quote: |
| So, does anyone feel like divulging names (and perhaps reasons) of good dispatchers? Large or small, if they are good, why keep them secret? People talk about the big Eikaiwa all the time, and people do talk about small companies, but, yes, they hesitate when poor conditions come up, however the point I've been trying to make is sharing info when people know the good stuff, not the complaints. |
No, people don't speak up at all when they've got something good, and that is my point. How many people on this forum do you suppose work for small time employers or institutions? How many of them have told people exactly where they work and what their conditions are? Have you told this forum about your contract and exactly where you work? Quite a few have told us about some of their conditions but not where they work. I don't think I've ever seen you do that much.
As I've already explained, why would people do something that might jeopardise their employment (not to mention the security risk they would be taking - lots of crazy people out there).
The last thing my aquaintance needs is people turning up and trying to get their job; especially not some unattached, enthusiatic newbie who can put in the (paid) overtime that they often have to turn down due to personal circumstances.
But by all means, perhaps if you led by example a few people might be willing to follow. |
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Pitarou
Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 1116
Location: Narita, Japan
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:55 am Post subject: |
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Dear seklarwia & Glenski,
You have both stated your opinions clearly, and at length. Anybody following this thread will have formed their own conclusions by now. With all due respect to you and to the forum moderators, I suggest you drop the matter.
Pitarou |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| seklarwia wrote: |
| People are told not to disuss contracts, period. I think I even have such a clause written into my contract somewhere. |
Not all clauses are binding or legal. I hope you realize that.
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| That is not something that is isolated in Japan, either. |
Well, it's the first I've heard of it.
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| I can understand why even if you cannot. |
This can be perceived as a jab.
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| Sometimes even if a contract is good, if a person/people find out that somebody else is getting a better deal it can cause unrest. |
Understandable, but if the inequality isn't fair, don't you think people should get it out in the open? After all, labor law states equality:
(Equal Treatment)
Article 3. An employer shall not engage in
discriminatory treatment with regard to wages, working
hours or other working conditions by reason of the
nationality, creed or social status of any worker.
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| Even with my employer, we don't all have identical contracts, but they are similar enough and the differences can be explained logically. |
Then unless people there feel otherwise, you seem fairly treated.
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| No, people don't speak up at all when they've got something good, and that is my point. |
How about past tense? One does not have to talk about a current employer. Describing a previous good one shouldn't hurt, or do you have some logical reason for that, too?
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| Have you told this forum about your contract and exactly where you work? Quite a few have told us about some of their conditions but not where they work. I don't think I've ever seen you do that much. |
No, I have not done it much. Not that many ask. Pretty much most of the time it hasn't even mattered.
I would be happy to divulge the name of the eikaiwa where I once worked. They paid my airfare and rent (both rarities then and now), and the work conditions were excellent except for the lack of shakai hoken, but all they offer now is PT work, and the number of hours has been dwindling over the years. Doubtful they are hiring. As for the private HS where I worked, the staff were wonderful, and it was a marvelous learning experience, but the workload itself was incredibly brutal (as I have described in intimate detail openly on a couple of forums). They, too, are not hiring.
So, as Pitarou has very kindly pointed out, this is pretty much the end of our exchange. If others want to add to the thread where we took it over, by all means, people, feel free! I'm back to entrance exams, final exams, copyediting, editing, and a million other things. |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| Not all clauses are binding or legal. I hope you realize that. |
Which is why I have spoken about mine on more than a few occasions and in no small detail. But regardless of whether they write it in to a contract, a handbook or tell you verbally, the message is clear; they don't want employees talking about it and sometimes (although admittedly, not always) for good reason.
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| That is not something that is isolated in Japan, either. |
Well, it's the first I've heard of it. |
Well I have been around the global block more than you and I imagine that my background probably has given me access to private details that most people would consider inappropriate to share with people who were not close.
For example at my uni in China, all the foreign teachers were asked not to discuss pay with local staff. Locals were being paid more than what was being considered a fair wage, but the foreign staff got paid more as an incentive to get them to move half way across the world to a country often perceived as one of the less desirable places to move to in E. Asia. I was asked not to discuss what I was paid even with my foreign collegues because I was being paid considerably more than even they were. I was paid for the other skills I brought to the table. The fact that I wasn't necessarily using them was beside the point; they were paying me for the right to make use of these additional skills should they need them. Would all the other foreign teachers have been able to accept this? Doubtful. Some might have, but there were a few that had a severe sense of over-entitlement who most certainly would not have.
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| I can understand why even if you cannot. |
This can be perceived as a jab. |
Please stop reading malintent into things where there is none. It was a statement of fact, nothing more: I don't know if you can understand or not, but I do. Even in the very post I'm currently responding to there are more than a couple of things that you have said that could be interpreted as insulting and the way you write often could be perceived as condescending, but most of us understand that it isn't your intent so don't constantly call you out on it; just as I'm not going to start picking apart your choice of words and accusing you when chances are it is just your style of writing at play again. You should simply accept that unless somebody is being overtly insulting, chances are you are mistaken. Just like when you assumed the wrong meaning of my use of the word "clever" before. Besides, as you have probably noticed; if I don't like or disagree with something, I come right out and say it - I don't deal in subtle jabs and insinuation.
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Understandable, but if the inequality isn't fair, don't you think people should get it out in the open? After all, labor law states equality:
(Equal Treatment)
Article 3. An employer shall not engage in
discriminatory treatment with regard to wages, working
hours or other working conditions by reason of the
nationality, creed or social status of any worker. |
I agree if there is some unfair reason that somebody is paid less. But not all pay differences are down to discrimination. There is a big difference between paying somebody less than what is fair and choosing to pay somebody a little more. But not many people are happy when they find out that somebody other than them is being paid more especially if the reason is not something clearly definable that they could feasibly work towards (extra qualifications, more responisibility, etc). If just the employee bonus that occassionally gets awarded within my branch (and announced via an email to everyone - I don't know if the same happens in other branches) causes just as many grumbles of annoyance as congratulations for the winner, that should give you a good hint how people would react to (what may seem to them) unjustified pay differences; most people are self-serving by nature whether they realise it or not.
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| How about past tense? One does not have to talk about a current employer. Describing a previous good one shouldn't hurt, or do you have some logical reason for that, too? |
Fair point if things haven't changed since they worked for them. I, however, still won't be giving a name for the employer I know of for the logical reason previously mentioned.
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| I would be happy to divulge the name of the eikaiwa where I once worked. They paid my airfare and rent (both rarities then and now), and the work conditions were excellent except for the lack of shakai hoken, but all they offer now is PT work, and the number of hours has been dwindling over the years. Doubtful they are hiring. As for the private HS where I worked, the staff were wonderful, and it was a marvelous learning experience, but the workload itself was incredibly brutal (as I have described in intimate detail openly on a couple of forums). They, too, are not hiring. |
Might still be useful to people in case they do start hiring. No reason people can't just let them know that they are around in case they need somebody last minute. Lots of legit reasons an employer might need to do so and there is no shortage of people around who could start working legally on short notice. And as to the workload; many of us put in a lot more hours than some might reckon on (myself included) and would not mind a heavy workload for decent pay and working conditions especially if there was a sense of job satisfaction at the end of it.
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| So, as Pitarou has very kindly pointed out, this is pretty much the end of our exchange. |
I hope so  Don't ask anymore questions, bring up any new points or accuse me of trying to jab, belittle, insult, etc, and I won't feel obligated to respond or defend myself. |
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Mr. Kalgukshi
Mod Team
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 6613
Location: Need to know basis only.
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Some people here seem unable or unwilling to comply with the warning above. Thread is locked and there will be no warnings next time. |
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