Job Discussion Forums

[SledgeCleaver]

Hello everyone,

How much leverage would you say one has when negotiating with universities?

For example, through a recruiter I found a possible university job, however on the sheet the recruiter sent me it was quoted as a 5000r salary with no health insurance. It seems possible the recruiter is writing this stuff and gets more money if they find someone who agrees to take less, but anyways, I would never take a job that didn't offer health insurance, certainly not at that salary level. Generally, I don't think I'm going to take this job, however it did make me think a bit about how much of a hardnose one can be at the negotiating table.

I suppose it might help to know my qualifications. I have a 4-year degree in economics, excellent GPA from a good school. I have more than 5 years of teaching experience, including experience teaching public high school mathematics, during which time I was a licensed teacher. I don't have TEFL or similar qualification, but that's because while I was a math teacher I completed about half of a Master's in Education. Of course, half a degree doesn't give you that shiny piece of paper, so let's just say I'm very experienced but lacking somewhat in bureaucratic cred.

From this forum it seems to be the consensus that schools in China are generally more likely to hire the cheapest person regardless of experience or qualification, which makes me think one shouldn't negotiate too much beyond essentials like insurance and accommodation. But certainly some small amount of negotiation can be gotten away with. For example I'd like to cap my hours at 16 a week, possibly 18 for a higher wage, that sort of thing. However, I don't want to miss out on a good job just because some deadbeat signed the contract without looking at it while I had slightly higher standards.

Any advice in this regard would be appreciated.

[vikeologist]

As a generalisation I think the situation is more that Universities have a pay structure; very typically 5k for someone with a degree and 5.5k for a Masters. The people in charge of recruiting FTs at Unis aren't really in charge of the purse strings.

What you say about wanting the cheapest people available may be more true of language mills. they may feel that extra qualifications, experience or even ability are not necessarily going to translate into extra money for them.

If money is your top priority in a Uni job then you may well be able to find Unis that pay 6k instead of 5k, although obviously they find it somewhat easier to find teachers.

I don't think money should be your top priority. The extra 1k a month is not such a big deal. The equivalent of an extra 2 hours a week of private classes.

I realise that you've mentioned that you're using a recruiter. I'm not going to advise you on the best way of negotiating with a recruiter, because I don't believe that new teachers to China should use recruiters under any circumstances. I feel a bit of a Leopold Bloom saying this, and I'm sure there are occasions when using a recruiter has worked out, though I've never actually heard of one. I just think it's unnecessary. It would be great if recruiters operated like literary agents; getting you the best deal. Unfortunately, their client is the Uni; not you.

Health insurance. This is a big topic. Bear in mind that any health insurance has limits. If you have a serious illness, then you may be entitled to be flown back to your home country. Will you be entitled to free health care there? Don't assume that health insurance will get you free treatment for serious illness in China. I'm not trying to take this discussion is a different direction. In this context I would just suggest looking at health insurance as being a nominal but minor perk of the job, depending on the small print.

To conclude, I would say that negotiation over pay is something that you can only typically do with Unis once you've been there for a while, and maybe not even then. You look like a good teacher on paper, but, assuming you've never taught and lived outside your home country, you're a bit of a gamble at the moment.

Get a good job. Come to china. In a years time you'll be in a much stronger position and hopefully have established some relationships or on the ground knowledge that will bolster your negotiating position with employers.

[Non Sequitur]

If you can re establish your teacher registration then you should be looking at the international schools. If hired in this sector 5K pm would be your eating out money.
vikeologist is right as most unis have at least 4 or 5 other FTs on staff and why should they pay more if it opens them up to extra demands from your colleagues.
I think your best chance of getting a sweetener is if you sign on for another year. Benefits could include a paid summer vacation plus 500 added to your salary.
I am taken aback by your insistence on paid health insurance and that you would never take a job without it.
Bro you are moving to a country which is about as different to your home locale as it is possible to be.
My home country has national free health. I don't demand it of any other country I work in.
The basic local PICC policy is about RMB1500 per year currently. I haven't seen an employer-paid deal yet.
If you want a medical repatriation health deal you will have to arrange that in your home country.

[choudoufu]

health insurance is a strange personal demand, especially in china.
you plan to go into negotiations demanding a benefit that is already
written into the standard safea contract.

you will receive PICC insurance, covering accidents and the "30 dreadful
diseases." you will not have cover outside of china, you will not have
repatriation coverage. it would be better to negotiate an insurance
allowance equal to the cost of chinese insurance (1680 rmb) that you
can apply towards the purchase of ex-pat health insurance.

here's a link to PICC: http://www.picchealth.com/english/tabid/496/InfoID/439/frtid/371/Default.aspx

if that uni job listing does not include insurance (as required by safea), then
you might question whether it's at a real university - one authorized to
hire foreigners. you didn't mention the visa. why?

[SledgeCleaver]

It seems I should clarify a few points:

1. I have 2 years of full-time ESL experience teaching in Russia, so I'm not a total noob to the ESL game or to living in non-first-world countries, though I'm starting to imagine China is crazier than Russia.

2. In speaking about negotiation, I wasn't saying I wanted a higher salary per se. The things I wanted to negotiate for were basic health coverage and a cap on teaching hours. Part of the reason for the hours cap is that I also work freelance online and hope to pick up a few privates in China, for example I tutor LSAT and am hoping to make a bit of extra money doing that if I can find students, or just to TOEFL or IELTS or whatever. I'd imagine I could easily double my base salary if I worked hard at it, not to mention the money I sometimes pick up online. On that note, the reason I don't want a language mill is that working 25-30 hours a week is probably going to force me to stop freelancing or doing privates, which I don't want to give up. Similarly, I might want to ask about the number of required office hours and so on. Anyways, vikeologist pointed out that an extra 1000k doesn't matter if you can pick up privates, and I absolutely agree with this. The summers, holidays, and low working hours required by unis allow extra money to be made, so the effective salary will be higher and that's precisely my plan.

3. Perhaps it's a bit unfair to say I wouldn't accept any job without health insurance. If I'm making $900 base and maybe double that with online freelancing plus privates, I could certainly afford say $150 for private international insurance (that's what it cost in Russia.) However, the bureaucracy for such insurance is a real pain. You have to pay up front, keep all the receipts, scan them in case they get lost, and mail them abroad with a bunch of complicated forms that you and doctors have to fill out, then they send you checks that are hard to cash or deposit money which incurs fees, etc. I'd rather avoid this for routine stuff, and in this case the job was at a medical/pharmaceutical university, so I guess I found it insulting that I wouldn't be given any coverage at all, not even to go to the campus clinic for something small or routine. I don't want to force the doctor to fill out a page-long form every time I get the sniffles. The private insurance should be for hospitalizations and major illnesses or accidents, because for everyday stuff it's almost more hassle than it's worth. Maybe other types of insurance are available for cash, I just don't know and I suppose that's another question worth asking if it hasn't been addressed elsewhere.

As to the international schools, do you mean private secondary schools for students trying to get into foreign universities? I've applied to a few such schools, certainly I'm qualified even without the papers. I agree it's a shame that I didn't stay for my Master's in Ed, which would come in very handy right about now. It was through NYC Teaching Fellows, but after a year teaching public mathematics in Brooklyn plus doing night classes I was about ready to kill myself, and I decided to do something else with my life. C'est la vie.

I do appreciate the advice. And I'd imagine this topic could be relevant to other teachers too.

[SledgeCleaver]

That last post came before choudoufu had posted. I'll take a look at that insurance stuff, thanks for the link.

[Non Sequitur]

The standard uni contract states max 20 contact hours pw. Each contact hour is 45 or 50 mins.
I think negotiating a 16 hour max should be possible.
Teachers typically don't do 20 hour weeks.
Chinese cities are huge and crowded so please factor in unpaid commute time when considering private face to face lessons.
Even though others may have had their standard PICC cover paid by their employer I never have.
PICC offices are everywhere in China and although I've never made a claim I've found my interaction with them better that other bureaucracies.
Claiming on your private cover does appear onerous and I can't comment on any other providers.
I think you should at least get into conversation with an international school before committing yourself to becoming a uni FT hack like most of us.
No I don't mean overseas prep classes at unis. I've done those and they pay the regular uni rates and I have never had just that type of class.
I'll pm you the name of a real international school to try yourself out on.
Don't ask for a job straight up, just job info along the lines 'what do I have to do to align my credentials with what you look for in a new hire?'
You will be expected to teach regular classroom subjects. Maths teachers are generally sought after in my exp.

[choudoufu]

although it may be changing, i believe the standard uni schedule is for
16 hours teaching, possibly also a couple office hours and an english
corner. anything over 16 is voluntary, and is paid overtime. but how
many unis actually require that 16 hours? my first year was 10 hours,
the next year 12, this year i have 14. no office hours. no english corner.
load drops to 12 in a month after the oral competition.

i don't believe PICC offers any coverage for basic medical....sniffles 'n such.
many unis will have a clinic where you can get free sniffle meds, otherwise
on your mao.

[hilena_westb]

I'm curious why a [was] licensed mathematics teacher would come to China to teach English. What's going on there? Why the change?

[roadwalker]

Real international school means a school with a curriculum and accreditation from outside the country it is located. So for example Maple Leaf is a Canadian international school in China. Western international schools pay western salaries. Many other schools call themselves international for marketing reasons or focus or aspirations but they aren't true international schools. They also may or may not pay better than local public or other private schools.

Teaching fellows programs in the US provisionally license non-teacher professionals with an interest in teaching to teach in public schools. As OP wrote, you teach by day and study for your post graduate education degree by night. By dropping the program before getting the degree, it appears OP is no longer licensed by New York or wherever to teach public schools. Therefore, I'd guess that true international schools are not in the cards.

Nonetheless OP, you may be able to find higher paying jobs teaching math(s) in English in some high schools or universities, especially private ones. Or any other substantive subject you were qualified to teach. I just teach English and am not interested in the others and I'm not familiar with any good programs. But there are advertisements from time to time looking for subject teachers and they pay more, even if not a true international school.

On the other hand, oral English (conversation) classes are fairly quick to prep for and teaching it at the university does generally leave the foreign teacher with a lot of spare time to pursue other things. You have options.

[Simon in Suzhou]

To be honest, if health insurance and health care are one of your "dealbreakers," China is probably not the country for you at all.

[SledgeCleaver]

A few other points:

1. I've sent replies to a few recruiters, however I'm aware that you don't negotiate with the recruiter, you get the contact for the school and negotiate with them. Personally I think it's okay, since by using recruiters you will have a lot more contacts and possibilities, then you can be more choosy and take a harder line on negotiations.

2. Looking back at the contract, I guess it does "offer" health insurance, it's just that it's taken out of my 5000r salary. So are all the utilities ie. gas, electric, internet, water, which as I understand are at least usually partially covered. Thus, it looks like the effective salary is, I don't know, closer to 4000r? I don't know how expensive such things are, which is part of the reason I'd prefer that most of it be covered. Knowing now that you can get basic PICC insurance for 1600r, it doesn't seem that bad. Though again, I think lots of schools pay for that on top of the salary, correct me if I'm wrong.

The PICC health coverage doesn't look that bad really, considering the price. Less than $300US for a year's coverage? If it's legit, then it's a good deal, though adding the extra outpatient coverage (cheap at 400r) and some extra "dreaded-disease" and repatriation coverage from an international insurer is probably a good idea.

As to the person saying "why the change," well, it's like asking a doctor who was stripped of his license why he doesn't practice medicine anymore. I'm qualified, but in the bureaucratic world we live in, qualifications seem to matter less than paper licenses. I can't get a teaching job in the USA. Anyways, if you do freelance work online, it's a good idea to live in a cheap country rather than an expensive one, since your pay for that work is the same but expenses go way down. In order to live in a cheap country, like China, I need a visa, and that means I have to do some work. The reason I was looking at universities is I understand the workload is very small, not to mention the long vacations, thus you're getting a visa and an apartment at a reasonable cost, and with that base you can use your extra time to earn more money or follow your personal aspirations, for example a hobby of mine is writing detective novels. Some people go to China to party I guess, but that's not really me, not that I'm a puritan or anything, for example something that turns me on about Asia is that karaoke seems to be more popular than anywhere else, and I love karaoke for a night out. But generally I just want a decent lifestyle and the ability to develop myself. On that note, I'm giving real thought to going to a smaller city rather than the big megalopolises.

[Javelin of Radiance]

I don't think you'll have much trouble finding what you're looking for.

[SledgeCleaver]

[Simon in Suzhou]