Job Discussion Forums

Sashadroogie · Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:02 pm Post subject: What's wrong with this picture?

For just the first 60 seconds of this clip, how many feedback points would you give to this fellow?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtZ0V5QyJPI&list=PL7F55C0DA16CC2640

fluffyhamster · Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:26 am Post subject:

Methodology-wise, the guy is obviously lecturing about stuff (formal grammar, verb paradigms mostly) that students can learn from books (and most books will be more clear and thorough, or at least more efficient, esp. if written in L1). Maybe you have a lot more feedback, such as he wasn't wearing a tie, talks too much, could be a serial killer, and so on, Sash? Razz

Linguistically, I'd prefer it if he concentrated on the perfect construction rather than recapping from imperfective "examples" (incomplete fragments) like I am (an English teacher).* (Sure, the "be" in all his examples is the "main verb"** of each verb phrase, but "linearly-speaking" the key to this particular lesson is surely the initial HAVE followed by -en). Then, he goes on to present quite a smorgasbord of meanings (hence my scarequotes around "be), and it might've been better to simply springboard from examples like I have eat-en to I have "be-en" (> /bi:n/)... to highlight the participle. Ultimately the uses he presents are linked, but the way he goes about presenting them might cause anxiety or even confusion (but he'd probably counter that only those who didn't know their grammar would be confused - well, duh!).

The perfect accompaniment (enjoy your nosebleeds!) to the above must be:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQuhgO1LieA

Other things the guy does that get on my wick slightly are transformations each way between active < > passive sentences (all well and good and dandy, but...), and doubling up the finite in the do-supported negative form of 'used to': http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=IajPcol1zNA#t=126s

Still, at least he's produced 400 videos, Sash. What have we in comparison got to show for ourselves? Nothin', we got nothin'! Laughing

Maybe most ELT is and never will be more than just the paltry sum of discrete bits and pieces.

*For painfully incomplete examples, see http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=nuSGq_rfKGM#t=131s . The guy seems to have a thing about 'be' as a main verb ("versus" an auxiliary LOL i.e. he has the two forms within the same incomplete fragments of Present progressive. He is being...a bit too selective and "contrastive". Examples of be + being obviously exist, as I've just shown, but there are many other verbs that can be the present participle e.g. I'm waiting, and any examples given should of course not be fragmentary if they require a complement).
**The lone or last verb in an unellipted verb phrase.

Sashadroogie · Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:21 am Post subject:

Pretty good critique, Fluffy. However, I stopped paying attention to the clip after the first minute. The misuse of metalanguage grievously harmed my ears. I needed to lie down and centre myself.

Why are there so many really AWFUL videos out there? Do these clowns actually make money out of this? How? Why can't it all be ... better?

spiral78 · Joined: 05 Apr 2004 Posts: 11534 Location: On a Short Leash

Sashadroogie · Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:34 am Post subject:

Sorry...

fluffyhamster · Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:34 pm Post subject:

To be fair to that guy, his examples aren't bad, and a bit of chalk and talk (or elicit, confirm, and board or whatever) is sometimes required. Plus not everyone has the time or human resources available to do much more than one-man presentations on YouTube (or the risk is that we will then end up just with more of the horrid stilted skits or noisy chaotic classroom clips we so often see already). But to make grammar lectures (and about such basics) the cornerstone of your method, you should of course really become the average Far Eastern public school teacher! (Non-native English speaker unkeen on actual communication, I mean).

Sashadroogie · Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:52 pm Post subject:

I'm not so enamoured with his examples, actually. Sure, there are worse things on the 'net, but here's what I would tell him in feedback:

1. Present Perfect, a tense?

2. 'Be' is not 'simple'.

3. Was/were does not depend on singular/plural.

4. Board work is a mess.

5. Too much focus on form before dealing with concept.

I only managed to get to about 2 mins this time. I find his voice irritating, grrr!

fluffyhamster · Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:17 pm Post subject:

Yeah, I noticed those things too, but decided to stick to just the points I raised in my initial post as I think one can be excused a few loose phrasings (admittedly might start to defeat the purpose of a grammar vlog though!). I mean, it's common in ELT for Present perfect to be called a tense for starters (even Huddleston & Pullum think it is IIRC). Plus you are being a bit inconsistent, in that you once questioned the wisdom of introducing trainees to aspect, so why now insist on aspect for foreign learners? http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?p=953534#953534 (FWIW however personally I've remained consistent in preferring linguistically more refined stuff). As for 'Was/were does not depend on singular/plural', what about I, he, she, it versus we and they (and let's lump 'you' in here just to be European). I can't be bothered to review his initial guff about 'be' so I'll take your word for it. I agree more time generally could be devoted to function (and sometimes the examples just don't cut it - see e.g. his 'articles' clip).

Denim-Maniac · Joined: 31 Jan 2012 Posts: 1238

I watched all the video ... and I dont think it was that bad. I read a few of the feedback comments posted and they tended to be favourable, so whilst it is easy to spot things that are lacking, some language learners have taken something from it so it cant be all bad.

I would agree the concept would be better placed before the form, but I honestly dont think this video is too shabby giving the context. Doing something similar with poor technical skills (he isnt a great video editor for example) and doing it on your own into a camera isnt an easy task IMO.

'for' and 'since' seem to be quite problematic for many students I work with yet had minimal attention on this video. I would suggest that more attention or specific attention could be paid to them. A comment posted also refers to use of 'ing' forms so for a far clearer picture the progressive might also need discussion along with the simple. The video could get really long then though right?

It would be interesting to see the average Asian TEFL teacher produce something like this. It would also be interesting to see a new teacher produce something like this by way of comparison. Id also see y'all produce something like this too Smile

The main advice I feel I would give, especially considering the medium of youtube video, is you need a bit more pizazz. Having the best marker sentence and the most complete grammar knowledge is one thing, but people have to like you to watch it / continue watching it etc etc.

Here is an example of someone who does similar online but with a bit of a spark. Some of her videos are hit and miss, but there is a life about her that means I want to watch them. Cant understimate the likeability factor IMO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6r8S68Z4nM

I just went back to watch the extra episodes that fluffy linked ... and couldnt make it through another video. Dull and dry ... and with the option to click into 'funny cat fart / real street fight / car crash / Obama does Gangnam style' or whatever todays flavour may be, this guy needs charisma for me to stay interested. Nothing wrong with a bit of 'edutainment' as long as it engages and informs.

Sashadroogie · Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:05 pm Post subject:

So forgiving!!

Or maybe I am just being cruel and difficult. Just evil!

I skimmed through the rest of it. I still think this is quite a poor effort all round though. Use of timelines was extremely weak - though at least there was some attempt to represent the concept through them. However, anyone watching this presentation would be forgiven for thinking that the TL is just another variant of a past form. Very confusingly 'explained'.

I am also very unimpressed with the transparent propaganda content - Lincoln Memorial indeed, tsk tsk.

Now, one more point. What about all those American colleagues of mine who state, forcefully, that there is no Present Perfect in American English? I am confused now too!!!

Sashadroogie · Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:13 pm Post subject:

Denim-maniac, nice link. However, I really must protest about the sky-high TTT. Grrr! Just as well I wasn't really listening...

spiral78 · Joined: 05 Apr 2004 Posts: 11534 Location: On a Short Leash

Sashadroogie · Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:16 pm Post subject:

Has this teacher got enough spark?

Russian version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGBQQI-v_08

English version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O35jrFkTUE

spiral78 · Joined: 05 Apr 2004 Posts: 11534 Location: On a Short Leash

Ok, a little more seriously.

If it's a video of a lesson including live students, TTT is judge-able. But if it's a video lesson sans students, meant to stand on its own, I guess we have to judge it a bit differently.

Having now scanned all the linked clips, my vote is 'appalling.'

What would make a decent video of a grammar point lesson?
Well, as D-M points out, a little more use of variety and interesting stuff. Some illustrations. Pictures. More context and better examples. (Murphy's book does it far better than this guy, IMO). Easy enough to incorporate.
A little more accuracy, as Sasha and Fluffy have noted. If one is going to use metalanguage with poor, unsuspecting students, at least get it right!
Delivery. This is ridiculously stilted. It's entirely possible to speak slowly and clearly without sounding like a hung-over robot (or looking like one). I will also admit to not being favourably impressed with the personal appearance of this guy; perhaps he reminds me of some of the alchoholic street teachers of the old days around these cobblestones.
Hopefully at least these videos are free.

I like the Chinese and Russian ladies much more. At least they're both somewhat creative with it - as D-M points out, they're competing with fluffy kittens and Psi for the video audience, and a little entertainment's probably appropriate for the medium.

Sashadroogie · Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:20 pm Post subject:

Hmmm. Not too sure about that. If a teacher needs to speak for five plus minutes, non-stop, for any grammar presentation, then there would seem to be an issue with TTT. Caused mainly by not being able to frame the concept concisely enough to begin with...

Luckily, no learners were hurt during the making of this video.