Job Discussion Forums

[Ger]

I'm trying to understand the logic or reasoning behind the Education Bureau of Hong Kong regarding qualifications/pay. Please help me out here.

1. PGCE/B.Ed = NET scheme = big bucks

2. B.Sc. + MA + M.Ed + TEFL Diploma = private education centres = small money (no housing allowance, etc.)

No. 2 still teaches HK kids.

[Darius]

The Education Bureau want trained, qualified and experienced high school English teachers - you aren't.

There is a presumption behind your post that "anyone can teach English" - they can't.

Would you apply for a position as a lawyer or a quantity surveyor with your qualifications? Of course you wouldn't. Why do you assume that you can walk in to one of the best-paid specialized English teaching jobs on the planet with none of the appropriate qualifications?

A 4 week TEFL Diploma is considered by professional teachers as a bit of a joke and means absolutely nothing.

I have a B.A. (Hons) in English Language(4 years), a PGCE in English teaching (a ONE YEAR course) and four years experience teaching high school English. Why should you receive the same pay and conditions as me?

The "logic or reasoning" seems obvious to me.

[Smiley]

It makes sense to me!

You're not a qualified or experienced teacher and the Hong Kong government doesn't owe you a living.

HK's for the big boys (and girls). To borrow your writing style -

PGCE / B. Ed (at the very least) = qualified English teacher = not you.

[Darius]

To elaborate further -


A PGCE is the qualification recognized by the UK, American, Canadian, Australian and New Zealand educational authorities to teach in secondary schools (high schools) or primary schools.


As I stated, my PGCE was one-year in length and consisted of 15 weeks - yes, that's 15 WEEKS - of in-class English teaching practice with real, live, living, breathing, spitting, swearing high school students. The remainder of the year - yes, that's YEAR was spent studying and analyzing the theory and practice of teaching English as well as studying and reviewing the actual course content. Compare that to a 4-week (closer to 20 day) TEFL.

Your "comment" - "PGCE/B.Ed = NET scheme = big bucks" glosses over it as if it were nothing.

I've met plenty of incompetent and illiterate TEFL diploma holders who have basically "bought" a relatively useless qualification that doesn't impress anyone who knows anything about teaching.

Any professional English teacher will tell you that what really counts is experience. Again, I repeat, according to what you have posted - you have none! I have spent the last 4 years honing and improving the skills of classroom management and discipline, creating units of work, setting and marking essays, assignments and exams, identifying students' strengths and weaknesses, learning and perfecting the best techniques to teach my specialist subject - English. Can you say the same?

The Hong Kong government know that the best people to teach English in their school system are - surprise, surprise - qualified and experienced school teachers with a history of excellence in their profession.

Your qualifications are great - but not to teach English in the Hong Kong school system.

It is precisely because Hong Kong pay "big bucks" that they can afford to select the most qualified and experienced teachers.

[Darius]

Correction -

"four years experience" should, of course, read "four years' experience", the rule of possessive plural being what it is. See - even I can make mistakes when I'm in a hurry!

[Marcoregano]

Darius and Smiley...I agree that rules are rules and it's perfectly understandable that the HK govt use them to recruit. However, it remains a fact that many with PGCE/BEd qualifications are lousy teachers and many of those recruited to the NET prog have no experience of teaching in Asia. There are also scammers with false PGCE certs. I knew one Aussie who had been a cab driver but somehow got into teaching and blagged his way onto the NET prog. He admitted using falsified documents. The funny thing is he was a really good teacher and respected by his students and colleagues.

Personally I have no interest in working for the NET prog or in the primary or secondary sector, so my opinion is neutral. If I were a secondary school principal, I would rate Asian classroom experience on a par with state-teaching quals and there are many great teachers out there with heaps of Asian classroom experience who are barred form the NT prog simply because they don't have a PGCE. I think that is a big mistake. BTW, you are incorrectly dismissive of the Dip TEFL. It isn't a joke qualification by any stretch and is far more pertinent to EFL teaching than a UK PGCE designed to train teachers for the UK National Curriculum. I think you are confusing it with online EFL certificates, or those that come out of a bag of crisps.

[Smiley]

Re:

"However, it remains a fact that many PGCE/BEd qualified teachers are lousy teachers"

Is that right? And what "fact" book did you find that in? - The book of facts for under-qualified teachers with inferiority complexes? I suspect that the reason that you "have no interest in working for the NET prog or in the primary or secondary sector" is because you wouldn't qualify!

Re:

"If I were a secondary school principal, I would rate Asian classroom experience on a par with state-teaching quals". Well, firstly, the initial post makes no mention of "Asian classroom experience" so it's hardly relevant is it? Secondly, you clearly have neither the qualifications nor experience to make such a judgment.

Re:

"BTW, you are incorrectly dismissive of the Dip TEFL. It isn't a joke qualification by any stretch and is far more pertinent to EFL teaching than a UK PGCE in teaching the National Curriculum. I think you are confusing it with online EFL certificates, or those that come out of a bag of crisps."

This comment shows me that you really have no idea what you're talking about. A four-week qualification is a four-week qualification, simple as that! You clearly have no idea of the day to day practicalities of high school teaching. The very suggestion that a four-week condensed TEFL course is even remotely comparable to a one year PGCE with years of classroom teaching experience is laughable. Every secondary school English teacher in the world has taught foreign students in their classes - many of them Asian ones. If you had ever taught in a secondary school you would know that!

I have both Asian classroom experience and high school teaching experience - that's why I'm a NET.

When I taught in China I could not BELIEVE the incompetence of many of my 4-week Dip TEFL colleagues. They hadn't the first clue about grammar, punctuation, the English language or anything else. What worried me most was the abysmal way that they attempted to manage their classes - skills that one learns and practices throughout a PGCE course.

[Marcoregano]

Smiley, you're very defensive. And virtually everything you have written above is incorrect or inaccurate. Laughable infact. Amusing that your PGCE enables you to beome so high and mighty.

Firstly, you clearly have no idea what the Dip TEFL is. It takes a minimum of 3 months full time, though most do it p/t over 6 months or a year. As I said already, you are confusing it with the Cert TEFL or more likely joke-TEFL certs.

Onward....I never made a comparison between a Dip TEFL and a PGCE. I said that the former was more relevant to teaching EFL.

As regards lousy teachers....I don't need to look in books. I have come across plenty and with your arrogance and prejudice Smiley you look like a good candidate. For what it's worth I have three degrees (including an MEd in TESOL) and I teach for HK University. I have over ten years of EFL experience and have taught in the secondary sector in Korea. I prefer the tertiary or adult sector. It may surprise you, but not everyone wants to be a NET.

Er, that'll do methinks. I'll wait for more balanced input.

[mcNug]

OH hail Smiley. Lord of TEFL! We are just mere insects when compared to you almighty great one!

Marcoregano has hit the nail on the head with every single thing he posted. Before you start saying I don't qualify, I do. Am I in the NET scheme? No. Would I want to? No. I have a full time post at a local primary school. I am employed directly through the school. There is another teacher here employed by the EMB who does have a PGCE but no TEFL qualifications whatsoever. In Australia she was a woodwork and metal work teacher. She has never taught English before and has absolutely no experience in teaching in Asia. Would it not be slightly more logical that a teacher with perhaps, a BA majoring in English and a TEFL Diploma would perhaps do a better job than someone who hasn't taught overseas before with just a PGCE?

You have a superiority complex son.

[Joachim]

Darius and Smiley,

Does the term "mutual masturbation" mean anything to you??

[Ger]

Interesting arguments. The fact is that Ger is teaching Hong Kong children outside of the NET scheme without an English Language degree & PGCE or a B.Ed.

So given the qualifications that were mentioned in my first post, plus 3.5 years teaching experience of Chinese learners, would you mind helping with the finding of a suitable course on offer in Hong Kong that would get me qualified for the NET scheme?

[ChrisRose]

I would like to add my 2 cents, but I am broke. Please accept 1.5 cents.

OKKKKKKKKK, here goes.

Academic / professional / vocational certification.

A B.ed is a B.ed, min 3.75 years, usually an average of 4 plus.

A Masters, well these can vary considerably, in paticular on the entry point.




In fact I am not going to contiune explaining, I remember something I said to a student only the other day..... "You cry baby *beep*."

To the original poster, you have studied logn and diligently, now why not enter a B.ed programme and catch up with the rest of the rat race? With credit transfeer it shouldn't take too long.

[Freddie_Unbelievable]

A PGCE is, and always will be, better than a TESOL Dip.

A NET position is, and always will be, better than any other teaching job in HK.

To those that don't have it: Ha Ha!

[Roger]

Ger is "teaching Hong Kong children outside the NET programme" - he has recently sought advice on whether it's legal to teach in Dongguan, Guangdong province, without a work visa.
Yes, some Chinese have "Hong Kong" children on the mainland.

[Marcoregano]

Unusually I will agree with Freddie on one point....yes, a PGCE or equivalent is more useful than a Dip TEFL.

However, the NET prog has the best teaching jobs in HK? Absolutely not! It offers great jobs and great money, granted, but there are some really bad schools out there and if you draw a short straw the money will be poor consolation. The best jobs (in my opinion) are at the uni's (if you can get a tenureship) or at the international schools. Again, not all are great and you'd be advised to do some research. The best I've come across? The French International School (I know some teachers there). Better money than NET, much longer holidays, smaller classes, reasonable internal politics. The best for me would be HKU full tenureship. Fat chance unfortunately as I don't have a PhD. Not yet anyway.