Job Discussion Forums

[spiral78]

It seems to me that misunderstandings about the value of simply being a native speaker of the English language may be the root of a high percentage of misconceptions on the part of newbies, and lead to a fair amount of disappointment and disillusionment in their first year or two abroad.

In our continuing effort to educate wanna-be teachers in realistic expectaions, can we describe somewhat the locally- perceived value of 'native speaker of English' in our individual regions of expertise?

Where I've been for the past 15 years approximately (Central/Western Europe) just being a native speaker carries really almost zero job market value these days. Back then, it was something - but even 15 years ago a newbie on this job market really needed a CELTA or equivalent to compete.

Today, in Central Europe, the CELTA/equivalent is necessary, and an EU member passport is also highly desirable, though not totally necessary. For Western Europe, even a related MA or PhD won't get a job for a non-EU citizen, though if one has the right passport, the CELTA/equivalent is enough to launch one into a subsistence-level newbie existence.

Socially, back then a native English speaker was often perceived as 'high class' just by virtue of his/her language skills. No more. Now, one needs to earn his/her creds socially as well.


Fair enough, I think - but it's not what lots of wanna-be teachers expect.

[tttompatz]

20 years ago the back-packer doing a gap year after high school and funding it by teaching "English" as they went was a fairly common occurrence.

Teaching in general and EFL in particular were largely unregulated and there was value in being a "native speaker".

Today the landscape IS DIFFERENT.

In Asia as an example, teaching is now a regulated profession and a degree is the minimum required for work in most countries and after 2015 and the continued integration of ASEAN will be required in ALL ASEAN block countries if you want to be a teacher.

In some counties, like Thailand, you now have 4 years to obtain a teacher's license (pass all of the licensure requirements) if you want to remain as a teacher in the country. In others, like the Philippines or Taiwan, you need to have a teacher's license before you can teach in a public school but the requirements for language academies are still relaxed. Being a native speaker is not a requirement if you can show language proficiency (TOEIC, IELTS, TOEFL).

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[fluffyhamster]

It's possible for a native English speaker to teach in their home country or an EU one (if an EU citizen) with just a CELTA and no degree, or teach in some of Asia with just a degree and no CELTA. If forced to choose between the two (i.e. if no grads with CELTAs were available), who would you prefer, the "uneducated but somehow trained" or the "supposedly educated but comparatively untrained"?

Part of the issue of "the value accorded to native speakers" is actually separate from the issue of qualifications - it's quite possible to be held of little value (by non-native "superiors", yet with linguistic insecurities) when qualified, informed, informative, you name it. But perhaps this should be a different topic, and might be more of a problem in Asia, plus there is nothing stopping non-natives wherever from e.g. bypassing possibly useless native informants and mining usage data, for example.

[Sashadroogie]

I agree with Spiral and Tttompatz. In Moscow, however, you can still find basic teaching opportunities by virtue of being a native speaker only, but these are harder to come by, and harder to hold on to. Local students expect more than a cheery disposition. In terms of visa regulations it is also harder for employers to secure a visa these days without teacher having a degree or specialist cert.

The market is changing too. Local students used to complain that their teachers couldn't speak English properly, and used dull rote-learning only. The learners never spoke. These days there are plenty of highly proficient Russian teachers with Celtas and Deltas etc. who knock the classroom socks off the average hungover and untrained Brad or Todd. There is no meaningful comparison, and most smart learners know it.

[spiral78]

[fluffyhamster]

I don't wish to discuss the merits (or not) of the CELTA at any further length either, Spiral. I was just asking if it could reasonably replace a degree in the students' eyes - they presumably want somewhat well-educated teachers after all, no? (Then again, perhaps it isn't an issue at those e.g. UK schools where non-degree holders may be employed - the students probably assume that all the teachers have a degree. Not that that quite answers my question).

[tttompatz]

I think it might be a bit better instead to look at what it takes to actually get a legitimate job ....

Entry level EFL in Asia (language academy stuff - kids and after school/weekends) needs a minimum of a degree and to be a native speaker (in most cases).

Moving slightly up the scale would be teachers in public schools. The OLD standard was a degree and a pulse.

-NOW, in Korea you need a TEFL (with in class components) to go with your degree.

-NOW in Thailand (for any legal work as a teacher) you need a minimum of a degree and depending on your country of passport, proof of English proficiency (IELTS, TOEIC, TOEFL).

If you want to actually stay as a teacher (long term) in addition to your degree you need to (within 4 years) actually pass the teacher's licensure tests (9 fields/4 exams) AND take the course on Thai Culture, Ethics and Standards.

-In China you are supposed to (by immigration and SAFEA rules - yes, they get bent a lot) have a degree, a TEFL and a minimum of 1 year of experience.

-In Indonesia you are supposed to have a TEFL and a degree with a major in ENGLISH.

Yes, enforcement is lax and rules get bent (bribery is not uncommon and working illegally without the proper visas and permits is also rampant) but the requirements are still on the books and it is getting harder to wiggle around the edges for much more than a year or so.

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[fluffyhamster]

Yes, visa regulations are tightening everywhere, and even graduates may (but only may - there are no guarantees) find they will garner more replies and jobs offers if they obtain a cert. Whether all the jobs they will then "legitimately" land are actually "legit" (good, fair, well-run, not too demanding or expecting too much, unprejudiced, etc etc etc) or not is another matter though, this being TEFL. Then there is the small matter of those without degrees or even any form of training, whom we must assume are all grasping devious something-for-nothings with massive entitlement issues, not actually bothering to read this impassioned imploring thread or the dozens of others just like it while continuing to post their "Why not?!" questions~rhetoric come what may.

[spiral78]

[fluffyhamster]

Well, if there are future newbies who seem real grasping devious something-for-nothings with massive entitlement issues, we can always direct them to this thread. Or perhaps to my distance Pedagogical-doggical Grammar course with optional mail-order Asian nagging partner (latter especially will soon sort 'em out!).

[Sashadroogie]

Yet again, forced to extremes. How about we stick to the topic at hand, Fluffy?

[fluffyhamster]

What topic? Entry-level requirements? Not much of a topic, really (and the essential facts regarding visas etc can be easily researched). So what if somebody somewhere is following dated advice (e.g. Wharton's Jobs in Japan) or refusing to believe they might have a hard time of it if just being a native speaker is honestly all they think it'll take. (Actually, exposure to a native speaker is sometimes all it takes, given years of immersion and many incremental attempts to pick the language up, but classrooms on the other can of course be much more "demanding" places). If however you mean say the hinted-at competition ever-present and building with non-native teachers, that could be interesting but nobody's biting. (I started writing something more about that topic, to add in my previous post, but held off posting it).

I can only speak for Japan. Untrained grads can still land jobs there, and those with CELTAs join the queue, perhaps nearer the front, but are still perceived as part of an icky foreign horde. Those with some Japanese experience and perhaps language ability get to climb into "desirable" and better-paid positions at say private high schools, but boy do they earn their money. Those who gain MAs vault into the exalted heights of university work, where they can mope and complain about their stuffy duties, and quite often even about how their students are generally almost as incapable as the ones they used to teach in eikaiwas or high schools. The qualifications themselves therefore don't seem to be doing the trick, though we can only wonder how much worse the situation truly would be without them.

[spiral78]

[fluffyhamster]

Well, the facts that are emerging don't sound that different to how they were last year, or the year before that. There's probably a bit of a glut of teachers still at the moment, and countries are starting to get pickier now that they can take their pick. Why not save the liveblog-like threads until there's a genuine development, or at least a crystal ball being cracked out to tell us what things will be like in 20 or more years' time? And of course the best place to get more specific information is on the country- or region-specific forums.

[Mr. Kalgukshi]

The following should be read very slowly and very carefully by those individuals that seem to delight in derailing threads and pursuing personal agendas and the like to the detriment of civil and helpful discussion on this board:

You are going to be permanently banned along with your IPs if you continue to make problems for others and the Mod Team.

I kid you not.