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billbob
Joined: 19 Nov 2009
Posts: 55
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 Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 6:14 am Post subject: Shortage of Spanish English Teachers? |
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I'd always assumed that it was universal that people learned English from a) native speakers, or b) native speakers of the same L1 as the learners, who just happen to be better at English than the learner is.
I was surprised therefore to come across native speakers of Czech and Polish (all with degrees in English philology, CELTAs, DELTAs, etc) teaching English at private language schools in Spain.
Is there therefore, a shortage of Spanish teachers in Spain these days, or even a shortage of native speakers (I'd imagine Spain is a top destination for natives)? Are these non-native and non-Spanish teachers taken seriously? |
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Paper_Cat
Joined: 11 Apr 2013
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 11:17 am Post subject: Re: Shortage of Spanish English Teachers? |
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| billbob wrote: |
I'd always assumed that it was universal that people learned English from a) native speakers, or b) native speakers of the same L1 as the learners, who just happen to be better at English than the learner is.
I was surprised therefore to come across native speakers of Czech and Polish (all with degrees in English philology, CELTAs, DELTAs, etc) teaching English at private language schools in Spain.
Is there therefore, a shortage of Spanish teachers in Spain these days, or even a shortage of native speakers (I'd imagine Spain is a top destination for natives)? Are these non-native and non-Spanish teachers taken seriously? |
They are taken more seriously than Spanish teachers and less seriously than natives. |
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billbob
Joined: 19 Nov 2009
Posts: 55
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| Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 11:21 am Post subject: Re: Shortage of Spanish English Teachers? |
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| Paper_Cat wrote: |
They are taken more seriously than Spanish teachers |
Seriously! I'm surprised. Why is that (I have never lived or worked in Spain so have no personal experience)? |
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Grimace420
Joined: 24 Sep 2011
Posts: 88
Location: Madriz
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| Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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Because when the obsession with learning English wasn't in full swing, too many English teachers from Spain took the piss for too long with both their teaching methods (grammar exercises, grammar exercises and more grammar exercises) and knowledge of the English language in general. Millions of Spaniards who have had years and years of formal English language instruction can barely produce any speech. As a result, even legitimately prepared and qualified English teachers from Spain find it hard to be taken seriously and get work, unless it's in the school system. When they do, it tends to be the scraps that no one else wants.
Spain is an attractive destination for English teachers, so I get the feeling it's only due to EU labour laws that the market isn't saturated with natives. |
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Paper_Cat
Joined: 11 Apr 2013
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Grimace420 wrote: |
Because when the obsession with learning English wasn't in full swing, too many English teachers from Spain took the piss for too long with both their teaching methods (grammar exercises, grammar exercises and more grammar exercises) and knowledge of the English language in general. Millions of Spaniards who have had years and years of formal English language instruction can barely produce any speech. As a result, even legitimately prepared and qualified English teachers from Spain find it hard to be taken seriously and get work, unless it's in the school system. When they do, it tends to be the scraps that no one else wants.
Spain is an attractive destination for English teachers, so I get the feeling it's only due to EU labour laws that the market isn't saturated with natives. |
I think it's because most natives would prefer to go to Korea and Taiwan and get a better deal for what they have to offer. |
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SirKirby
Joined: 03 Oct 2007
Posts: 261
Location: Barcelona, Spain
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:51 am Post subject: |
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There's no reason whatsoever why someone who happens to have a Spanish (or other) passport, and who maybe bilingual, shouldn't be every bit as good an English teacher as a "native".
Some of the very best English teachers I've known have been "non-natives". They've been far better teachers than many "natives", with a knowledge of English language far in excess of many "native" speakers. |
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billbob
Joined: 19 Nov 2009
Posts: 55
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| Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| SirKirby wrote: |
| Some of the very best English teachers I've known have been "non-natives". They've been far better teachers than many "natives", with a knowledge of English language far in excess of many "native" speakers. |
Sir Kirby, I quite agree with you here. What is interesting for me is the idea put forward by Paper Cat and Grimace420 that (although most of us reasonably accept that native and non-native teaching competencies are equal), some of the non-natives are less equal than others viz. Spaniards vs. Central Europeans. |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 13 Jun 2013
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| SirKirby wrote: |
Some of the very best English teachers I've known have been "non-natives". They've been far better teachers than many "natives", with a knowledge of English language far in excess of many "native" speakers. |
A hyperbolic statement at best with absolutely no grounding in reality.
I don't know why this plethora exists amongst the ESL crowd about their lack of ability as a whole. Do you honestly think that there are plenty of non-native teachers that are better than native speaking teachers?
So, let's just compare a non native speaking Japanese teacher (let's say - from Australia) and a native speaker Japanese teacher who both have exactly the same qualifications and experience - who would you employ to teach you Japanese?
And we can take any language you want: Arabic, Mandarin, Swahili etc - a native speaker teacher has insight into the language and culture that the non-native speaker does not.
That is not to say non-native speaker teachers do not have a place in ESL because of course, they do.
Non-native speaker teachers are most guilty of this 'we are better teachers than natives because we know grammar' insecurity driven, crap and nonsense. My Spanish is fluent but I wouldn't have the gall to say I would be a better or a more effective Spanish teacher than even a below average or lesser qualified native speaking Spanish teacher.  |
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RabbitWho
Joined: 16 Jan 2010
Posts: 30
Location: Spain
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| Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:10 pm Post subject: Re: Shortage of Spanish English Teachers? |
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In my experience my Eastern European co-workers speak English better than most Spanish people and understand English grammar better than most English speaking natives.
And even when this isn't the case, anyone who has taught children will agree that someone with a very basic B1 level of English and a knack with kids will be able to educate the class better than someone with C2 or native English who hasn't a clue how to talk to or treat children or control a class. It's very hard for them to appreciate your perfect use of grammar and beautiful pronunciation when they are hanging off the ceiling or being strangled by their peers. |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 13 Jun 2013
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:56 pm Post subject: Re: Shortage of Spanish English Teachers? |
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| RabbitWho wrote: |
In my experience my Eastern European co-workers speak English better than most Spanish people and understand English grammar better than most English speaking natives.
And even when this isn't the case, anyone who has taught children will agree that someone with a very basic B1 level of English and a knack with kids will be able to educate the class better than someone with C2 or native English who hasn't a clue how to talk to or treat children or control a class. It's very hard for them to appreciate your perfect use of grammar and beautiful pronunciation when they are hanging off the ceiling or being strangled by their peers. |
So, Eastern Europeans are the best people to teach English? Seeing as most of them know more about the grammar rules than most English speaking natives.  |
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SirKirby
Joined: 03 Oct 2007
Posts: 261
Location: Barcelona, Spain
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:57 am Post subject: |
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| robbie_davies wrote: |
| A hyperbolic statement at best with absolutely no grounding in reality. |
Er, actually, 30+ years in language teaching, during which I've come into contact with literally 1000s of language teachers, both native speakers and otherwise, interviewed them, employed them, observed them, tutored them, taught them, worked with them...
That's actually quite a lot of "reality".
It's not a question of whether "non-natives" are better teachers or not. It's that a "native" is not necessarily a better teacher.
Which would you rather have: a "native" backpacker only in ELT to travel round the world for a year or two, with a one month TEFL qualification, or a "non-native" with a four-year degree, lots of experience, a virtually native level command of English and a vocation to teach? |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 13 Jun 2013
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| SirKirby wrote: |
| robbie_davies wrote: |
| A hyperbolic statement at best with absolutely no grounding in reality. |
Er, actually, 30+ years in language teaching, during which I've come into contact with literally 1000s of language teachers, both native speakers and otherwise, interviewed them, employed them, observed them, tutored them, taught them, worked with them...
That's actually quite a lot of "reality".
It's not a question of whether "non-natives" are better teachers or not. It's that a "native" is not necessarily a better teacher.
Which would you rather have: a "native" backpacker only in ELT to travel round the world for a year or two, with a one month TEFL qualification, or a "non-native" with a four-year degree, lots of experience, a virtually native level command of English and a vocation to teach? |
Therein lies the big flaw in your argument.
Every time we discuss this topic, the 'backpacker' tag is attributed to the 'native' speaking teacher whereas there are as many 'backpacker' non-native teachers with similar competencies/incompetenceies teaching English all around the world.
Disregarding level - how about we judge teachers based on the same level of education and experience and then the answer becomes a lot more clearer.
Two backpackers, one has a degree in spaghetti studies and is a non native speaker and the other has a degree in roast beef and yorkshire pudding studies and is a native speaker - who do you employ?
Is a non-native teacher of English with a BA/MA in English/linguistics/TESOL better than some native speaker backpacker? I suppose so.
Is the native speaker teacher with a BA/MA in English/linguistics/TESOL better than a non native backpacker? The answer is obvious.
Is a non native teacher of English with a BA/MA in English/linguistics/TESOL better than a native speaker with the same qualifications?
Well answer this question.
You want to learn Russian, you have two teachers with the same qualifications and experience, one is from Rostov on Don, Russia and is a native speaker and the other is from Cork in Ireland. Who would you employ to teach you? |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Is a non native teacher of English with a BA/MA in English/linguistics/TESOL better than a native speaker with the same qualifications? |
In my personal experience, some of them are.
Teaching well is both an art and a science. I know people with all the right paper qualifications who still can't get off the ground in an actual teaching context.
Further, post-grad studies allow a fairly wide latitude for specializations. Someone who focused heavily on grammar analysis, for example, may still fall quite short on the method/approach side.
The simply isn't a generic, all-encompassing answer to the basic question of native vs non native speaker. |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 13 Jun 2013
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
[quote="spiral78"]
In my personal experience, some of them are. |
And in my experience Spiral, many aren't.
| Quote: |
| Teaching well is both an art and a science. I know people with all the right paper qualifications who still can't get off the ground in an actual teaching context. |
But that hasn't anything to do with the native vs non native speaker issue, we have two teachers with the same qualifications and experiences and competencies - who would you employ?
| Quote: |
| Further, post-grad studies allow a fairly wide latitude for specializations. Someone who focused heavily on grammar analysis, for example, may still fall quite short on the method/approach side. |
Which is also true, but this has nothing to do with the native vs non native speaker argument.
| Quote: |
The simply isn't a generic, all-encompassing answer to the basic question of native vs non native speaker.
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Totally agree, two teachers of Japanese, one is Japanese, one is from Alaska and is a non native speaker - both are equal in qualifications, experience and competencies, you are employing them to teach Japanese - who would you employ? |
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billbob
Joined: 19 Nov 2009
Posts: 55
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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I didn't start this thread to discuss who makes better teachers, natives or non-natives.
I feel that most learners of English have a preference for either a native speaker of English, or someone who shares the learner's L1, is better at English than they are, who can "explain" English in the shared L1.
What I wanted to investigate by starting this thread was whether there are perceived shortcomings to Spanish teachers of English, or shortcomings to Spain that stop native speakers from working there- I would've though Spain would be a top destination for native speakers and there would therefore be no need to employ teachers from Central Europe. |
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