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jdh1981
Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 2
Location: owensboro kentucky
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 Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:30 am Post subject: university vs kindergarten |
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| I have been living in Shenzhen over 2 years now teaching in an international kindergarten. The job is easy and the pay is good, but i am interested in moving on to a different city and different job. I'm curious what is it like teaching in an university? Do you decide what to teach or is the curriculum provided? How difficult is the job in terms of teaching and what you need to prepare and preparation time? I know i don't want to teach at a training center. i prefer a job that will give me the summer and winter holidays so i can travel. Right now i enjoy summer and winter holidays and a great salary that allows me to have a good lifestyle and save money and also send money home for child support payments. Anyone with experience teaching uni please give me some feedback on the content of what you teach and how difficult the job is. Also a good city to live not as large as here in shenzhen. |
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GuestBob
Joined: 18 Jun 2011
Posts: 270
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| Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:18 am Post subject: |
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If you find a good university at which to work then the answers to your questions will pretty much be whatever you decide to make them. Let me try to give you a sense of things by providing three fictitous examples:
| Once Upon a Time in Tertiary wrote: |
Example 1: The Backassward CET Gig
Since 2005 the College English Test has been officially decoupled from graduation requirement at all colleges and universities in China, however, most students and institutions still consider it a necessary component of any curriculum because 1) it has always been there and 2) it has always been there. Yep, it really is that pointless. Pretty much the worst job in tertiary level instruction is the NET who is used for general CET instruction.
Your standard CET class is a full ban of up to 60 students, most of whome don't want to be there. The only reason they have English lessons at college (which are the latest in a series which stretches back to middle school or earlier) is because they need to sit the CET4 and 6 tests if they want to keep up with their peers in terms of qualifications. And because the university has told them to take these classes because [see points one and two above].
There may be half a dozen students who are interested, want to work and can engage with lessons. The overall ability of students will depend on the institution you are at - at a P211 university the textbooks you are supplied with for speaking instruction will likely be far below the students' level of ability. At a provincial college, half of the students will struggle to comprehend basic instructions.
There are strategies which work with classes like these, but the whole setup is flawed.
18 hours a week of this is fairly depressing.
In terms of freedoms for course and lesson planning, either: 1) nobody will care what you do because your courses are often considered to be pointless (the CET doesn't have a spoken element); or 2) you will be instructed to keep to the set texts only because nobody thinks you're a teacher.
Example 2: The Average University.
You'll probably teach a mixture of smaller CET classes (half bans of 30 students) and English majors. You'll likely be restricted to speaking classes but may be tossed the odd reading course if you are good at your job and win the confidence of the FLD.
You'll probably be allowed significant freedoms to plan your own lessons and assessments, although there may be some intrusion from the administration if your courses is actually part of the core curriculum for students' degree programs.
You'll likely not be able to select any of the textbooks.
The work is okay, it can be better or worse depending on local conditions and the people you work with but it's never going to be great.
Example 3: Unicorn!
At a small number of places you can find a proper teaching gig at a domestic university. It is very rare, but some places will let you have a hand in textbook selection, allow you to plan more than just your own course and will (very sensibly) restrict your teaching to almost exclusivley English majors.
You'll be able to teach a much wider range of courses (including some non-language courses such as history and/or literature) and might even find yourself in a place where you can do some research for an article or start that MA you've been meaning to read.
This kind of gig will never happen if you have a them-and-us attitude towards everything Chinese though. You'd better be up for some decent lesson planning and be willing to contribute to bit and bobs around the office too: if you work like a teacher, some places treat you like a teacher....and that goes for the admin too.
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One might expect P211 universities to be inclined towards E3, but this is often not the case: you are likely much less qualified than the NNET staff and your duties might be limited to window dressing to ensure the quality of important courses. This isn't always the case, but don't be dazzled by a big name.
On the same note, the horrors of E1 can happen anywhere - as can the bliss of E3.
Most gigs will run you between 16 and 18 hours. Some go up to 20 or down to 14 but more or less than these figures is unusual and should be investigated.
Office hours are normally optional (E3, E2) or non-existent (E1) but if you want to actually have a real job (E3) you have to be a presence in your department and should probably be visible during a decent chunk of the work week. I have turned down jobs on the basis of there not being office space for foreign staff, because it suggests that you aren't actually part of anything.
Housing will be included but these days you have to check if you are going to get bumped in with international students. Resist dormitories at all costs! Unless you are a giant man child or the pay/duties are just too good. Living off campus is less likely to be supported and generally frowned upon a bit because NETs will not have done this before and the FAO won't know how to deal with it ("Oh no! A new thing!).
Extra duties depend on your relationship with your bosses but are normally negotiable ("I don't do English corners but I will do a guest lecture on one of the following subjects every term" is always a good one).
Check whether holidays are paid/unpaid/reduced pay and what effect renewing a contract will have on this.
Other than that, normal precautions apply. Just as with every other part of the sector there are some real hellholes out there which should be avoided. But for universities in particular, you must, must, must pay attention to the duties and not just how many times your hourly load goes into your monthly salary.
Also, beware of "XYZ College of Famous Daxue": these are often international colleges within a university which run programs that are less rigorously monitored by the provincial MoE or priavte concerns which have arm's length accreditation from a university. These are often, though not always, E1 gigs because a whiteface for all helps to justify the fees. |
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mwaltman
Joined: 07 May 2013
Posts: 78
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| Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| This is a good example of the problem of the backpacker mentality of ESL in China. Some think it's perfectly fine and dandy to go from a kindergarten job to a university level educator. They are hardly the same job. The fact that anyone can just go do such a thing takes ALL credibility of qualified teachers and throws it out the window. |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:28 am Post subject: |
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Vocational colleges pay pretty much the same as unis and shouldn't be ignored.
The key for me is the subject. Oral English to all your classes means that pretty much you have the same lesson plan for a week of teaching.
Sure they cover the material at different rates depending on class size so the planning isn't quite as easy as I suggest.
After semester one you'll have your resources lined up and from there on it's a doddle.
If a lesson is 2x45 min teaching hours you need to do different work in the 2nd 45 as even freshers are getting bored by that stage.
Also remember Oral is harder to mark as the speaking opportunity is very fleeting. Get mark capturing sussed and you should have no problems.
If you've been reading recent posts you will know that RMB5500 pm plus up to 10K airfare and free accom is standard fare.
Best
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chinatimes
Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 478
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| Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:40 am Post subject: |
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| mwaltman wrote: |
| This is a good example of the problem of the backpacker mentality of ESL in China. Some think it's perfectly fine and dandy to go from a kindergarten job to a university level educator. They are hardly the same job. The fact that anyone can just go do such a thing takes ALL credibility of qualified teachers and throws it out the window. |
If you are serious about being a university teacher, then a backpacker going from kindergarten to a university job is just as much throwing credibility out the window as someone who isn't working towards their PhD and not willing to put the time in to do it right.
It's like moving down from being a low level A, to a high level B, scoffing at B level teachers who never desired to be in the A level range to begin with.
You are not hired at 6,000 or less because you have a PhD, you are hired because you are considered a "backpacker", a native speaker. I use different terminology, but I sure prefer talking with university students at a bit lower salary, getting time off, and being allowed to tailor my classes over any language school job which imposes 15 hour office time in addition to teaching which I prepare at home for. I can't sit in an office and be productive. It's not my style.
What I see are these above average teachers, they probably score 75-85% and can't get into PhD programs, come to Asia teach pretty much useless esoteric stuff which impresses a faculty because they may not have known a word but it does absolutely NOTHING for the progress of a beginner student coming to college just grappling with basic conversation problems.
These students don't have the physical dexterity to pronounce words correctly. They can think of the word, they can understand the meaning, and the faculty who are the judges with a high level fluency aren't even aware of the learning process because they were probably trained at an early age. They didn't have to work up the ranks in order to progress. Rich mom and daddy trained them early on and they can't see why others aren't able to do it nor do they recognize the problem.
The short of this rant is if you are qualified in a field, you ought get a position as an expert in that field. Coming to China to teach just English is what that is. You don't become "qualified". This will either lead to what I stated or you will have robotic teachers only teaching based on some method. I would rather have a backpacker who is patient, letting me practice, not planning all the lessons out, allowing me to ask questions.
I have taken too many Chinese language classes where the teacher was under immense pressure to finish a curriculum or else it wouldn't "look good" on them that they didn't give me any time to actually practice. Too much focus on presentation, and if you are worried about people with less qualifications taking your job, then it is obvious you are preparing too much material.
In the end, the students shouldn't be aware of qualified vs. unqualified teachers. S V O order and frequently used words are the same. I like to think of it as a "dinner talk", maybe you had some of these as a child. You were studying something in school and your parents simply couldn't relate. Or you pick up a hobby and hire a mentor. Your parents took you to practice and private lessons in support of you. They spoke your language but had no idea of what you were studying. This is how teaching native English should be.
We shouldn't be worried about delivering new information to the students, we should be focused on them learning how to communicate what they already know. If you have a PhD in physics you really shouldn't be "competing" for the easy win against a backpacker. Find a different reason. |
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GuestBob
Joined: 18 Jun 2011
Posts: 270
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| Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| chinatimes wrote: |
| Coming to China to teach just English is what that is. You don't become "qualified". This will either lead to what I stated or you will have robotic teachers only teaching based on some method. I would rather have a backpacker who is patient, letting me practice, not planning all the lessons out, allowing me to ask questions. |
I don't really agree with the choice that you present.
I consider tertiary gigs in China to be an excellent base for an MA TESOL (or Chinese language study) as they often have comparativley low hours, enough freedom to allow for action research and the opportunity to observe other teachers, including NNET peers. I agree that it isn't perfectly normal for tertiary teachers in China to be there for upskilling reasons but it isn't exactly rare either. Working and studying together also plays out better at some places rather than others, but if you can find something cushty then it is a good way to make use of your time in China.
You seem to assume that the only thing which people teach at university is spoken English - this isn't always the case. You also seem to assume that all students lack an intrinsic reason for studying English - again, this isn't always the case. Land a good uni. or college gig and you'll be teaching a varied portfolio of classes to students who have (within the limits of reason) chosen to be there. I teach at a T3 college and next semester only 1/3 of my classes are spoken English. This isn't unusual either - I used to work in a T2 university in Gansu which had me teaching a whole whack of other courses. This is why I think it's so important to find a nice place which wants to give you a broader portfolio and assign you English majors.
College English certainly is a terrible scourge though and on that more general point: for me at least, experience suggests that a backpacker type is far more likely to run into issues working with larger classes of bored students. Teaching CET well is very difficult and experience and understanding of classroom and lesson management really do help to keep students on track. The six students in the front row who are engaged and interested in studying English aren't the only ones in the room and if a teacher pretends that they are then they aren't doing their job properly. Giving a bunch of accounting students the space and time to ask questions in an English class isn't going to be productive unless they know how to ask question and care enough to do so.
I certainly do agree that enthusiasm counts for a great deal when it come to tackling CET teaching and I also agree that someone who is willing to meet the challenges of large and uncooperative classes is much more valuable than someone who has higher quals but who has also burned out (we've all met those). And, yes, if you have a PhD in Marine Biology you should be teaching that, obviously.
In short, some university gigs in China can be what you make 'em. Some people come away from them after three or four years with a Masters (or much improved Chinese language skills) and a reasonable level of exit velocity whilst others end up with little more than an anger management issue and a putative drinking problem. |
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chinatimes
Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 478
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| Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Working and studying together also plays out better at some places rather than others, but if you can find something cushty then it is a good way to make use of your time in China. |
I was speaking in terms of working, not studying. If you are going to school to become "more qualified" for a job in a particular field that is one thing. This thread is about working in China and the OP was in reference university jobs to work, not attend as a student.
Unless you are saying that the foreign native English speaking student of a university should be allowed to teach classes in a different way than a normal Z visa holder (wouldn't that be illegal) then I think you misread my post.
| Quote: |
| I teach at a T3 college and next semester only 1/3 of my classes are spoken English. This isn't unusual either - I used to work in a T2 university in Gansu which had me teaching a whole whack of other courses. This is why I think it's so important to find a nice place which wants to give you a broader portfolio and assign you English majors. |
There is has been a problem, whether resolved yet I don't know, but in California (like the likes of LA) some schools are actually taught in Spanish for Spanish speakers to get the new information quicker while taking English classes to learn English.
You can teach a class in English to Chinese who are not able to understand you. How do you know they scored high marks because of you? How do you know the good students didn't give them the notes?
They take your test without any oral process and you are none the wiser. They picked the right sentence, they memorized what the good students wrote down for notes, and now you think your teaching is what did it for them. I am sorry to say, it is easy to piggyback in these non-English speaking classes.
| Quote: |
| Some people come away from them after three or four years with a Masters (or much improved Chinese language skills) and a reasonable level of exit velocity whilst others end up with little more than an anger management issue and a putative drinking problem. |
Again, my post had nothing to do with the native English speaker being the student. I was talking about foreigners coming to China (with the label "backpacker") and teaching English as a teacher. No student element for the native English speaker was intended in my post.
If you come to teach English, it is because you are a native speaker, it has nothing to with your writing or Chinese abilities. I have yet to get a job offer seeking only my written English and not my speaking, face, location, and willingness to work for less.
If you are up to the challenge, show me a university offer for September 2013 which only wants me to send them something in writing where they do not want to speak to me on the phone, hear my voice through the computer, or see my photo. I'll just send in my resume and whatever it is they want me to write. Deal? |
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GuestBob
Joined: 18 Jun 2011
Posts: 270
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| Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| chinatimes wrote: |
| ... not attend as a student. |
Quite a few people study an MA TESOL by distance whilst working at a Chinese university - it's really very sensible as you can do live research and observations in an interesting cross-cultural environment. You work for the university in China and, because the contact hours are so low, you have time to study for your degree from a US/UK/Elsewhere university.
It's not like this is an unusual idea. It's fairly common.
And yes, I do know what I am doing - which is the fundamental question posed by the rest of your post. I am sorry you seem to think that being white is a lowest common denominator which we all share but there are places in China which don't hire based on skin colour and some daft notion of the native speaker as the be all and end all of linguistic perfection.
If you're having trouble finding a job you like then I suggest you follow the advice I posted earlier in the thread. There are plenty of universities out there at which you can spend a good chunk of your time teaching English majors (who can understand you, and whose understanding can be measured with examinations that you write, mark and upload to the university's record keeping system all by yourself). If the place is half way decent they will interview you though, and they should too, because interviewing people is normal and helps to eliminate the folks whose CV "isn't totally accurate". |
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chinatimes
Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 478
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| Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Quite a few people study an MA TESOL by distance whilst working at a Chinese university - it's really very sensible as you can do live research and observations in an interesting cross-cultural environment. You work for the university in China and, because the contact hours are so low, you have time to study for your degree from a US/UK/Elsewhere university. |
This thread was about TEACHING at a university or kindergarten. Again you are talking about people coming to China to study. This was never what I was referring to and I doubt the original poster had this in mind when they initially posted.
If you study on your time off, that is your thing. It has NOTHING to do with a "backpacker" coming to teach and NOT studying.
| Quote: |
| I am sorry you seem to think that being white is a lowest common denominator which we all share but there are places in China which don't hire based on skin colour and some daft notion of the native speaker as the be all and end all of linguistic perfection. |
That's the second misunderstanding. I wasn't referring to studying in china as a native English speaker or the race/skin color of a teacher in China. Please reread and try to understand the points I did mean to make.
| Quote: |
| There are plenty of universities out there at which you can spend a good chunk of your time teaching English majors (who can understand you, and whose understanding can be measured with examinations that you write, mark and upload to the university's record keeping system all by yourself). |
If it reaches that level of proficiency, then the teacher should become qualified in a field and not just be hired on the premise of them being a native English speaker. They will also earn more money. You won't need to make "credibility" underachiever excuses.
I never stated I had problems getting a job. I was referring to the expectations of a "backpacker". You don't seem to have understood the points I raised because you are replying with things that don't even fit as a "rebuttal".
I feel like I am saying, "I prefer spaghetti" and you reply with "Well, if you want to go to Italy, there are good offers at travel agencies these days." It's not quite what I was meaning, but yet, yes it has a hint of relationship (in a schizoid kind of way - fragmented association).
| Quote: |
| If the place is half way decent they will interview you though, and they should too, because interviewing people is normal and helps to eliminate the folks whose CV "isn't totally accurate". |
Yes, I have seen this with both the "backpacker" teachers and the teachers who are qualified in a field. They are 2 separate things. If you want to be distinguished from a "backpacker", get the qualifications and teach in a certain field. If you you want to teach for a school that hires you on the premise of being a native English speaker, then don't complain when you "could have had a better job" and you could have had a "worse job" that a backpacker "stole" from you. The ruined reputation/credibility part is just a saving face tactic because you don't want to admit you quit working for that higher degree to become more qualified. You wanted the easy win, but the school doesn't care about your "legal beagle" status as an English teacher. They just want to pay low and give students exposure to a native English speaker.
It's rather plain and simple.
Last edited by chinatimes on Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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GuestBob
Joined: 18 Jun 2011
Posts: 270
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| Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| chinatimes wrote: |
| This thread was about TEACHING at a university or kindergarten. Again you are talking about people coming to China to study. This was never what I was referring to and I doubt the original poster had this in mind when they initially posted. |
Nope, I am still talking about teaching. If you want to do the kind of research which is required for a decent postgraduate qualification then you need to be an active teacher or, at least, have access to a teaching environment.
The rest of your post is rather angry but you do suggest that "...the teacher should become qualified in a field", which is exactly what some people do while they are here by using their work environment as a platform for further p/t time study with a US/UK university.
It's quite normal for HE/FE teachers to be engaged in certificated training or conducting research while they are working - I really don't understand why you are making such a song and dance about this idea. |
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chinatimes
Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 478
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| Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Nope, I am still talking about teaching. |
Then, this guy references studying:
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| If you want to do the kind of research which is required for a decent postgraduate qualification |
Sounds like studying to me. I have never seen a typical Z visa 6,000 RMB university job ad on this site, thebeijinger, or echinacities which pay teachers to do research. They are looking for native English teachers, maybe 2 years experience, and they will hire anyone who has TOEFL maybe first before those who don't. I have never been turned down with a university position like this and I have no TOEFL training.
Studying might be something you are doing on your own time to better yourself. Nothing wrong, but it has nothing to do with deciding a job where you work.
If I decide to take Korean classes, do I get to say the school should hire me instead of my friend who just wants to get drunk after work instead of attending my Korean class? Should I get paid more?
The job requirements and pay are independent of any decision to study.
| Quote: |
| It's quite normal for HE/FE teachers to be engaged in certificated training while they are working |
This has nothing to do with deciding working conditions alone. What you are bringing up is a third variable. Pregnancy by toasters. Just because there are many who are pregnant and may have toasters doesn't mean toasters cause pregnancy.
Similarly, you might be studying for a better job, but this doesn't mean that study time you are putting in now gives you a leg up on the backpacker who is not and supposedly "destroying" the credibility of university teaching.
You are taking a backpacker position, the backpacker is not taking a higher level position. You will move up, the backpacker will stay. Until then, you have nothing to complain about. We all have to start at the lowest rung and move up. Just because you have ambitions doesn't mean you get to start on the 4th or 5th.
Whether or not someone decides to study is a separate issue. You don't seem to comprehend this. Someone coming to teach and teach alone without studying will be given certain offers. If you come and want to teach and study, that is fine, but don't expect the bar to be raised because you want to move up.
Move up, get your qualifications. Until then, a backpacker is not destroying the credibility of a university job. This is what was initially stated that created this dialogue between us.
You ought to reread the posts if you want to understand my intentions. Until then, you are on a student soapbox and not addressing what I have stated.
Last edited by chinatimes on Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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GuestBob
Joined: 18 Jun 2011
Posts: 270
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| Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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Sometimes I wonder if this site is anything more than a bunch of disorganized people shouting at each other.
Mod request: banme.
MOD EDIT: Requested granted. |
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jdh1981
Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 2
Location: owensboro kentucky
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| Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:02 am Post subject: |
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| I am feel ai am qualified to teach In university. I started teaching kindergarten because i liked being around kids and the salary is good (18,000 per month) I have a B.A. in English and 120 hour TEFL cert. I'm not just some backpacker traveling around. I do this job Because i enjoy it and i am good at it. I wasn't asking about peoples opinion on switching schools, i was asking the details of what teaching in an university is like. Hours , workload,salary, and other things about university jobs. |
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Markness
Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 738
Location: Chengdu
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| Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:20 am Post subject: |
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| jdh1981 wrote: |
| I am feel ai am qualified to teach In university. I started teaching kindergarten because i liked being around kids and the salary is good (18,000 per month) I have a B.A. in English and 120 hour TEFL cert. I'm not just some backpacker traveling around. I do this job Because i enjoy it and i am good at it. I wasn't asking about peoples opinion on switching schools, i was asking the details of what teaching in an university is like. Hours , workload,salary, and other things about university jobs. |
Haha, look what you've done! Gosh darnit! |
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chinatimes
Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 478
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| Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:10 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I wasn't asking about peoples opinion on switching schools, i was asking the details of what teaching in an university is like. Hours , workload,salary, and other things about university jobs. |
Well, you got a good idea now. Some people take it serious and others don't. You can be a "backpacker" or you can be a "scholar" looking to move up.
If you are going to further your studies and get a MA or PhD, then realize that the time off is essential for your studies. If not, then, there isn't much to do unless you get an offer in the city.
Last year I did a lot of preparation and tried to get students to do a lot of work, only to be told by the school not to do this. The students felt attendance was enough to get an A and the school didn't want them to actually do any work.
Be ready for this possibility. It means you will give presentations and lecture style classes without any reciprocity. |
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