Job Discussion Forums

[mark_in_saigon]

WHO WE ARE – Analyzing ESL job seekers in HCMC

I recently completed an analysis of people seeking jobs in the ESL industry for work in HCMC. The position offered was a rather attractive job, but not out of the reach of the average teacher, it was something that anyone with a moderate level of skill would at least aspire to, and the job especially offered a good schedule with adequate hours and income in a fairly central location of the city. Respondents displayed many levels of skill, experience and background. Details follow:

Total number of respondents: 36

Male 76% Female 24%

Average age 32.5 (approximated, some older respondents did not note their actual ages, some ages were estimated based on graduation dates)

Nationalities
Australian 5%
British 15%
Irish 5%
Filipino 11%
South African 14%
Spanish 3%
U.S. 35%
U.S. Viet Kieu 5%

Time in VN
Less than 1 year 38%
1 year 16%
1.1 to 3 years 19%
3.1 – 6.9 years 5%
7 – 14 years 19%

Did not have Bachelors 19%

Did not have any form of TESOL 22%
Had CELTA 11%

Other notes on the TESOL – incomplete info on this topic, not everyone divulged full details or provided a copy of the cert. Here is the info I am more or less sure about: 36 job seekers, 8 had no TESOL, only 1 of the 36 directly stated his was an online cert, only 4 stated that they had a CELTA.

FINAL SCORING OF CANDIDATES – this was based on my own weightings which included experience, education, quality of presentation, and a few other factors.

Two candidates were given a fail score due to glaring errors in their presentations (example: I seen your advertisement…), or due to no significant qualifications.

Scores ranged from 7 – 26.

Average score was 16.5, without accounting for the two failures.

24 candidates scored 16 or below, including the two failures.

5 scored 24 or higher. 2 scored 26, the highest score awarded, though not the highest potential score, which would have been 30.

There was some correlation between age and score, but there was a 25 year old who scored 24.

The only scores at 20 or over which were logged in were by 2 Brits and 8 Americans. When scoring on presentation and subjective factors, I tried to divorce that judgment from any identification of age, gender or nationality while awarding the scores. However, the final formula did award extra points to the so called desirable countries, using a set of criterion from a source in China for this aspect of the scoring. It seemed similar to the VN prejudices, and I could not find a documented scoring process for this from VN. While the top scorers would have remained the same without this score figured in, not considering origin would have boosted the scores of some of the candidates rather significantly. While this aspect of the scoring is likely quite distasteful to our western sensibilities, the attempt was to understand the nature of the job seekers in terms of overall presentation, and also with sympathy to the natural prejudices displayed by the hiring managers (and customer base) here.

My final observation would be on the quality of the presentations on paper. I was surprised how poorly so many of the candidates managed that task. Even some of the highest scorers had a less than stellar presentation, and scored high based on education, experience and maybe some of the text in their presentations. But there was not a single overall presentation that reached the highest level of scoring allowed in this category.

[ExpatLuke]

That's an interesting read. I'd be interested in seeing how I would score. Were these in-person interviews, or is this all based off the cover letter and CV?

[mark_in_saigon]

These are the figures based on whatever portfolio of documents the respondents sent it and do not include any subsequent personal interaction. I thought the initial analysis might be of interest to the ESL teaching community here.

Where anyone would score is based on his presentation, experience, education (and any other qualifications), with a boost or a penalty depending on your country of origin (this factored in courtesy of a Chinese employer which shared its formula on this point).

As noted, I was rather surprised by the lower quality of skill displayed in the presentation of the employment packages, actually they were mostly not real employment packages, they were resumes, cover letters and sometimes copies of passports, certificates and degrees. Just a few included some letters of recommendation. No one had a portfolio with true polish, although some of them had enough well written details in their resumes to score quite well. Some maxed out the score on qualifications, but no one maxed out on overall quality of presentation, which seems to me to be part of the world of English communication. But, the advertisement was for English teacher, not business trainer.

We did not get inundated with truly low level respondents, like you might expect from PNL short timers, only 2 were so lacking that they were not considered for a score.

If folks want to know how they would score, we could set up an anonymous deal where you could send in your package with your name removed and could get an honest score (to the extent our process is capable of making these judgments). No intention to offend anyone, but it is interesting to see some real info on what our community really looks like on paper, and to see how your own presentation looks comparatively.

My conclusion: first rate teachers are pretty scarce, or are mostly employed and not looking. Plenty of teachers at the middle levels. However, with the number of employers out there, I did not find these results to cry out that we have this huge glut of teachers driving the market towards lower wages. I do think it is a bifurcated market, both for the jobs on offer as well as the employees available. I get the feeling it is quite easy to get teachers with mid level skills. High level teachers are much more scarce. However, this does not speak to the issue of how many jobs are available for that segment. I have seen that low level employers will ignore applications from high level teachers, knowing that it will never work, so some in that group could actually have more trouble finding work, in theory, especially if they had some hickey. In reality though, that group seems to do fine.

[skarper]

Very interesting project.

Why may I ask did you embark on it? Is it part of a job you do or a project for academic research? Or is it just to stop your brain dying a slow death from underuse! If so I hear you.

I'm guessing the poor 'portfolios' is due to them not being necessary to land a job if you have the basic tickboxes covered - degree - CELTA - white - some experience - Native speaker. I think with these covered you will not be out of work for long (but if you are at all picky you may not stay in work long either)

I'm sure I could knock together a much better application package than I have ever bothered to do but simply can't see the need.

I also think that whatever your experience/qualifications and your application's qualities you will still often be rejected based on the decision maker's prejudices. "I want a girl - must be under 40 - must be handsome - must be new to the country" etc etc. Of course 'must be white' applies quite a lot too.

We all have prejudices and I would reject heaps of good candidates based on a bad experience with their nationality or something even sillier. Good job I'm not and won't be a DOS. I was asked once (by a DOS) why I hadn't gone the management route and answered with (foolish) frankness that I couldn't deal with the kind of people who I'd have to employ!

[I'm With Stupid]

[kurtz]

Was this for a job at Cleverlearn?

[charlesmarlow]

Congratulations on your first TEFL publication.

[1st Sgt Welsh]

[mark_in_saigon]

As these jobs we do are academic in nature, I was really expecting a few people to include samples of some of the teaching tools they have created. I have seen that can be very effective in generating interest from hiring managers that are seeking higher level teachers.

Seems like lots of folks consider it standard to send passport scans, as well as degree scans, TESOL scans and letters of recommendation. Even if one does not ask for those, about half the respondents will send something of that nature along, maybe half will only send a resume and cover letter. If it is okay to send a letter from someone who supervised you when you worked in a restaurant 10 years ago, it would seem okay to send a sample of one of your own writings relating to teaching.

Almost all resumes and cover letters had easy to spot errors of all sorts. I would have guessed that English teachers would insure there were no spelling or grammar errors on their resumes, but in reality, almost all respondents had some. Still, only one displayed a profound lack of skill with English.

Resume polish is a separate category from qualifications, and refers to quality of content of the documents (as well as creativity in including appropriate documents), not just the skill displayed in writing the text, but also resume format. Things like having a list and putting periods on the ends of some phrases and not on others. Inappropriately large fonts. Including information that is totally irrelevant. Especially important is professional treatment of the important goals/objective/summary statement field.

[kurtz]

Mark,

I guess you won't say who the job was for, but nor did you post the requirements for the job; that might be somewhat helpful. Not having a CELTA doesn't mean much if the job doesn't require one in the first place.

The sample size of 36 doesn't really provide much detail, but it's better than nothing I suppose.

I presume the job in question was for General English in some kind of mill? Does the company supply a Work Permit and a 1-year multiple entry visa?

Furthermore, why would someone include some kind of academic writing as an initial contact? I would have thought producing a CV with experience matching the job's requirements and a well-written cover letter including why you're such a perfect match for the job would be more relevant than a tedious bit of writing. I'm no HR expert, but as someone else mentioned, HR depts usually have so much paper to shift so I can't imagine they'd look at a bit of writing without asking for it.

MOD EDIT

[mark_in_saigon]

This was an attempt to determine the nature of the job seekers in the ESL teaching market in HCMC. The job requirements were generically stated to attract better teachers, but without specific requirements relating to qualifications. No comments were added about WP or visa. Why anyone would include academic writing, reference letters, passports or anything else was up to the respondent. I am just trying to simply state that in my opinion, I was surprised that no one made the attempt to showcase his own creations, yet many felt comfortable including irrelevant notes, such as hobbies or reference letters from in the distant past with no relation to teaching. Make of that what you will, it is just my own observation. The sample size is itself a valuable piece of information, telling you how many respondents a job might attract. You can manage your own study however you like, I am sharing mine with you, so I am not viewing it from the perspective of how any of you would manage your own. Better than nothing is great praise, thanks so much for your kind words. It is also the only study I have seen posted on this topic here in the years I have been a member. I look forward to commenting on everyone else’s studies.

This is not paper, these are electronic files, we can look at the ones we want to and ignore those we do not, no shifting of paper required. As already stated, I do know of an individual who includes some very relevant documents proving his expertise, who achieves excellent results in terms of response percentage (and subsequent job offers), so that is why I was looking for other examples and was a bit surprised not to find any. Again, make of that what you will.

Yes, I agree that some of the guys who scored quite highly seemed to be surprise catches. Would rather not state specifically where they had worked, but they had some very well known (and respected) names on their list of former employers. I did not really view it as sad though, unless you want to say that this whole teaching experience is sad, which I think it is not. There certainly is some great sadness to be found, but more for the natives than ourselves, I think. I am trying to avoid editorializing on this specific thread, we can do that on all the others, I am trying to stick with the facts that I found, understanding that the nature of this project also means we have to make judgments and form opinions. Still, I have to respond that just because a guy is older and has been here awhile does not mean he cannot be seeking a job, and that he should only aspire to the highest levels of pay or most well known employers. Some folks here already have their financial houses in order, which is a great profile for any of us. This gives us the freedom to work in different scenarios which we may find more fulfilling or interesting (or less restrictive) than the so called tier 1 organizations, and the few extra shekels do not mean that much to us one way or the other.

Maybe as a side note to that side note I should add that I did not find many or any of the respondents to exude the aura of having serious financial resources and approaching the employer from a position of strength or at least equality. Perhaps that is part of the employment strategy for those folks, or maybe those guys are few and far between.

[Mr. Kalgukshi]

Members are requested to promptly advise the Mod Team of any ageist or otherwise inappropriate comments on this thread.

[kurtz]

I know a thing or two about statistics, so forgive my comments relating to sample size, that is, the better than nothing comment.

This sentence caused some uncertainty "I recently completed an analysis of people seeking jobs in the ESL industry for work in HCMC. The position offered was a rather attractive job" So I took that to mean your analysis was based on 36 people looking for jobs in the ESL industry and that one job was looked at in detail.

My questions were in relation to what were the requirements of the job, which would make your results more meaningful. For example, X amount of people had a CELTA would be meaningless unless the job required a CELTA. Again, not trying to be critical.

What was the giveaway on the applicants apparent lack of financial resources? Considering most EFL jobs don't require a suit and tie and a gleaming Rolex Datejust to set off the ensemble; how did you surmise that the applicants were of humble means?

Some folks here already have their financial houses in order, which is a great profile for any of us. This gives us the freedom to work in different scenarios which we may find more fulfilling or interesting

Anyone who has worked in Vietnam for a while knows that guys like that generally aren't here to teach, maybe another analysis in the future?

[deadlift]

Interesting project.

Just to be clear, this wasn't for an actual job? In essence, you put up a fake job ad and analysed the responses to it, right?

[mark_in_saigon]

The job did not specify the need for any particular qualifications, though the implication was that it was a better job. My goal was to see what qualifications were held (and other features were displayed) by the average job seeker, without attempting to discourage response from any group in particular.

So, this 36 is how many people responded to one job advertisement, and the further notes describe the details of those people.

Not saying the applicants were of humble means. This was not as easy to state as gender or nationality, and my comments here are just inferences drawn, not firm conclusions. Maybe it is better to just ignore that particular comment if you find it difficult to quantify, it is more the nature of the feeling one gets based on his experiences with doing these things over the years rather than asking for a credit report score or a financial statement, which was not part of the plan. Mostly, I did this for my own knowledge while helping an employer who was not that up to speed on job search. So it is not really fair to share specifics, just thought the members here would especially be interested in the notes on ages, gender, nationalities, TESOL certs and numbers of responses. Other than those notes, we get into my own judgments, which I would prefer not to have to justify or debate, I think those are more anecdotal, if you find them of value, note them, if not, ignore them.