Job Discussion Forums

[vabeckele]

Personally, I find it appalling that English centres ask us teachers to 'volunteer' our services for a whole weekend while parents are paying fees for their children to attend these camps: http://tnhvietnam.xemzi.com/en/job/show/14120/Volunteer-needed-for-International-Camp-at-Better-English

I know for a fact the parents have paid for this trip to Hanoi from Thai Binh. What irks me more is the fact that some goody goody is going to, glady, run and help these 'poor' kids.

I have and will continue to teach those in need, but I won't let anyone profit from it.

[LettersAthruZ]

Oh no doubt! Sadly, it happens all the time....

THEE most common scam is to get some gullible gap-year kids (usually from Australia) around 18 - 22 years old and tell them they will be on a three-month volunteer project to teach English to "....poor kids in Viet Nam" with a minuscule monthly stipend of 3 Million VND!

Then, when they think they'll be sleeping in a jungle hut under a mosquito net in the highlands somewheres, they get here, arrive in Ha Noi or Hai Phong and suddenly they are thrown into a University classroom and told to teach.

NOT A STATE OR PUBLIC University - but rather a private one (FPT University, Hai Phong PRIVATE University, etc.) - now, these private universities are actual FOR-PROFIT institutions and these kids don't drop just only a few Dong to attend classes at these places.....

....and, thusly, these are "the poor kids" that gullible Tay young'uns get suckered into teaching for free whilst the Director and head of the regular teaching staff at the University sit back, take a small draw on the brandy snifter by the fireplace, and count the tuition as it rolls in!

[ExpatLuke]

I agree with you on this one. I think that working for free is something any self-respecting EFL teacher should rarely (if ever) engage in. Too many employers are taking advantage of this attitude that teachers should be spending a certain amount of their free time to grade papers, plan lessons, write student comments, etc. If you look at any other profession, people would be up in arms if they were asked to work for free.

A whole weekend or day spent "volunteering" is completely ridiculous. You should demand your normal salary or hourly pay if your employer is forcing you to "volunteer" your time and energy.

[tideout]

I think there's a whole market out there for "volunteer" teaching and teaching "experiences" that have a high rate of 20 something's zip-lining through a jungle canopy somewhere. Maybe some of the projects are genuine or at least well intended but I think it's hurt markets in other places as well.

Costa Rica comes to mind. There's a real ongoing need for teachers there but I think there are enough Teaching English "experiences" to really put a dent in what might have become a more legit market.

Unfortunately, I've come to view the ESL job market as something of a scam with a short shelf life for many. Too bad, lots of potential.

[TRH]

[charlesmarlow]

There is always an attack on the schools and rightly so. Nevertheless, one can not discuss this topic without discussing the "teachers". I have had the opportunity of working with hundreds of teachers in Vietnam, and also know a lot of teachers who I fortunately have not had to deal with in a work environment. Most of the teachers in Vietnam are substandard, a disgrace to the profession, and both immoral and unethical. Most of them could never find a similar job in their own countery, in fact, a lot of them are unemployable that's why they have to leave their country. Most of them, if they could find a job back home, would be blue collar workers in low level manual labour positions. And overnight or after a one month course become academics or scholars in their own minds. Most of them, even the ones working in reputable schools, can't write professional student reports, need training in elementary soft skills, etc could write a lot more, they deserve nothing but a necktie social at the OK Corral in the backpacker area. In conclusion, the EFL industry is a farce for the majority of people in the industry, salaries are so low it's pathetic, if one thinks they will be saving a lot of money or any money for retirement, raising a family, buying a house, dream on. Most people will have a low standard of living which would be at the poverty level in the west. But don't forget you get to experiece another culture and learn about other people, ok, but get out as quickly as possible. There is one positive aspect to the industry is if you are highly qualified and have experience working for professinal schools, you can climb the ladder and possibly get a management position paying 4-5000 usd a month, it's still not much money and luck also helps.
This is my opinion and one may not agree with it, and so be it. MOD EDIT

[vabeckele]

Yes, I would agree about the teachers being substandard, but hey, so is the environment. To go further, and to bolster the point about lesson planning, marking etc. being 'free' here, or expected to be, is correct.

I have noticed quite a significant policy change within the education industry here in Hanoi but no real shift in regards to the teachers it employs. The way it stands will see it all fail, yet again. Those of us on a full-time contractual package are being paid a minimum of 2k (US) and contact hours can be as low as 15 a week. For that deal, I think we can all agree lesson planning and additional 'event' duties are a part of the deal, a necessary evil but obligatory.

What I am seeing is firms, still not schools, asking teachers to work in more than one school (another waste of time for the kids) and also, quite commonly work on a part-time basis at 20 bucks an hour. If a teacher does an 80 hour teaching load this equates to 1600 dollars. Now, add in the marking, planning, the regular assessments (with no teacher room and resources), parent meetings and covering other 'events'. the shebang becomes a joke. On top of this, I have seen these blood sucking recruiters ask for a master's in English or just be considered to 'be a native speaker' to get the job (requirements that many of us cannot meet or requirements we can all meet [the politics of this is again confusing and probably for a reason]) . In short it is a bloody mess and the external governing bodies overseeing these CIE,IB and IGCSE programmes, although probably complicit at some level, would normally not sign off on schools and recruiting agencies implementing these progammes as they currently do with no standardisation on how these are delivered.

Think of the kids (forget the language centres) consider the complications of children getting a 'master's in English' the one day and then the next, a clown. We all know the results of that. Not forgetting the inability to develop a relationship with the school and the students (I personally think this is another tactic used to muddy the waters. but this could just be my jaded view of things here).

To be taken seriously, the Vietnamese govt. needs to address the problem of teacher retention and student-teacher relationships. Unfortunately, all I see is the same culture of a money grabbing and manipulative system to cover up the now, widely publicly known problem of institutes and the individuals within them, charging and delivering extra courses and fees for their own private gain. It's cheaper too, they can now do it at state schools where the infrastructure is already in place. hey ho.

[bobpen]

[bobpen]

[vabeckele]

[skarper]

Ethical behaviour within our industry? As rare as the droppings of an oscillating ebony equine toy for small children...

[charlesmarlow]

I havenet been in the classroom for years, contact teaching- it's too much work and the pay is generaally not great, its better to be a manager easier job, much higher pay, benefits and about 20% of the time can be based on looking busy,surfing the internet etc, it takes a lot of skill dueing this job but somone has to do it. Meetings also kill a lot of time and I work for a top heavy management edu organisation so we have a large group of highly paid individuals mainly foreigners who have to convince others that we are necessary for the organisation to operate. Of course, 50% of us could be eliminated tomorrow but then what, oh well, I also suggest anyone interested in a management position, forget an American edu organisation,choose the Aussies or the Brits, much better pay etc and they know how to milk the system, gotta go home now its after 4 and I might miss the bus, another geat idea from management, busses leave at a certain time so cant work overtime, love it.

[Mr. Kalgukshi]

A member has just been issued a permanent exit order for posting racist comments. Future ones will result in the same action for offending parties.

[ExpatLuke]

While ethical behavior in EFL may be rare, especially in Vietnam, I would think that it has to be there somewhere. On the topic, I've seen several of the more reputable schools that offer at least 2 hours per day to plan for 6 hours worth of lesson time. Of course that's not much, but if you've been teaching the same course for awhile, that would probably go a long way to cutting down on your working for free time.

[Oh My God]

MOD EDIT

Free work is just part of the game BUT you should feel free to negotiate comp. time, days off, or etc...

To the VN, free time is just normal but it doesn't have to be. That said, if you're one of their star performers - it just makes sense for you to be part of their ceremonies. So my friends, this is where you can milk it.