Job Discussion Forums

[ProduceSection]

So I keep posing this question in the wrong place, apparently. First in the general discussion board, then in the newbie board. Hopefully I'm finally in the right place to get some answers. Here goes.

I'm looking to teach overseas, ideally in China (haven't made up my mind whether HK or Mainland) but the problem is, I don't have teaching experience and I'm not certified. I do have a strong command of English and a degree in journalism that could pass for "related" if you squint, but I doubt that would do the trick.

My understanding from reading these boards and others is that I have two options: get a job at a seedy language mill that may or may not pay me, or get a TESOL or CELTA certification.

So, with that in mind, what would be my best bet for getting one of those certifications? I've seen the ads on the main page that say I can get it in Thailand for a grand and have job placement, etc., but those sound too good to be true. So in your expert opinions, what do you, the folks of the international job board, think would be my best bet? I've seen a few things here and there saying if I take the CELTA there I'd have to come home before I could get a work visa, which would blow since flights are expensive. What's the deal with that?

Also, I'm not looking to do this as a permanent career, but as a way to gain foreign experience and to learn Chinese. I'm a reporter at a newspaper here in the US, and I'd hope to use experience in China to enhance my current career down the line i.e. work as a foreign correspondent, a travel writer or an international affairs writer. With that being the case, would you still recommend I get a certification? Or would I be OK if I were to find one of the less-reputable anyone-with-a-pulse type of places for a couple years while I learn the language as best I can?

Thanks in advance for your help.

[Non Sequitur]

The average uni or vocational gig doesn't pay much heed to certification.
If you are only going to be here 1 or 2 years the cost/benefit may not stack up.
I found my cert was valuable to me simply as a confidence thing.
I know a few techniques that help me monitor how I'm doin'.
If you are teaching Oral you are never going to be asked a grammar question and the Chinese teachers know more anyway.
If you want to start next month you'd better get going on applications.

[Denim-Maniac]

If you really want to learn Chinese, the university / college job is probably the better bet IMO.

Working in a training centre may require more hours, and is quite likely to require a more serious approach, especially in terms of lesson planning, especially if you teach adults. Also consider that some training centre jobs require you to work evenings and weekends ... and this could potentially eat into the 'learn Chinese' time.

Certification is always a good idea ... but the skills and techniques learned tend to be for teaching adults and tend to be geared up for small classes, neither of which apply when you work in a university or college. So as suggested, you could skip a certificate all together and just 'wing it' and learn on the job. Sure, that could be messy ... but if learning Chinese is your thing really, then maybe thats OK.

If you do take a certificate, do it at home if possible. Many many places offer CELTA / Trinity and SIT courses, all of which meet the generally recognised standard of 120 hours learning with observed teaching practice of real EFL students. Anything less than that isnt worth doing 99.9% of the time.

[tangal]

[Bud Powell]

I'm a reporter at a newspaper here in the US, and I'd hope to use experience in China to enhance my current career down the line i.e. work as a foreign correspondent, a travel writer or an international affairs writer. With that being the case, would you still recommend I get a certification?


You have a language-related degree. The only people I know who go through the certification process are those who have no degree and/or no related teaching experience. (I'll probably hear from a Ph.D in linguistics or Writing who was required to become certified. Watch).

Your experiences in China will open up doors in journalism if you are satisfied with being a one-trick pony and are reconciled to being a freelancer. If you are young and are willing to risk it, I'd say to go for it. Why limit yourself to China? It is a very difficult country in which to be a recognized journalist. Live in China for a couple of years, then head to Eastern Europe. Then head somewhere else.

I've published many articles about my experiences in China. I've also published many photos to accompany my articles. They are all locally-published, so the pay has been local/regional. The market is out there, but the pay isn't.

You'll be leaving a steady job with (I assume) health benefits. That's a lot to lose.

[ProduceSection]

Thanks so much for all the thoughtful replies, everyone. I really appreciate it. They've prompted a few follow-ups (journalist, remember?) so here goes.

So it seems to me you guys are saying that earning a certification would be overkill for the type of gig you suggest i.e. university/vocational jobs? I definitely prefer the idea of teaching adult students to kids, so that's good to hear.

Tangal -- thanks for the perspective from someone who knows the journalism biz. It's not so much that I'm hoping to move to China to augment my current career as much as it is I want a new experience that could garner me further opportunities in the future. The truth is, I'm in my early 20's and dissatisfied with my job/life at home, and want to do something like this while I'm young. I've spent my whole life in the Northeast U.S. apart from a few brief vacations, and I want to change things up, so what better way to do so than move to China? Call it a need for adventure, I guess, but I'm in a position where I have no debts or personal ties to speak of, and I want to try something completely new.

Now I realize saying something like "what better way to do so than move to China?" might make it appear as though it's a casual choice or I'm taking it lightly -- not the case. I realize it would be a monumental undertaking that would leave me with quite a bit of culture shock and a lot of points where I sit and wonder "what did I get myself into?" but that's part of the appeal for me -- getting out of my comfort zone.

Back to the point of augmenting my career -- it's not so much that I hope such experience would help me in the future, so much as I'm trying to mitigate career damage from stepping away from journalism. I'm itching for an adventure, and my job at a mid-level daily in New Jersey isn't cutting it. That said, getting away from a highly competitive field like journalism for a year or two could potentially hurt my prospects. My thoughts are, if a job interviewer asks me about it, fluency in Chinese (or close to it) and, if I can find them, a few writing gigs in China, would make it apparent that it wasn't some sort of frivolous holiday and could potentially put me over the top among a crop of equally qualified applicants.

The way I see it is if I get a university gig for the 2014-15 term, I can spend two years in China and then come back having learned the language and saved a significant chunk of coin, and I'll still just be 26. At that point, I'll either get a similar job to the one I have now, leverage my experience in China to find a related job in journalism or elsewhere in communications, or go to grad school with a significantly larger cash cushion with which to absorb tuition. From where I'm sitting it looks like a tie-win-win situation. Is this a fair assessment, or am I way off?

Bud -- I was actually going to ask about this in another post, so I'm glad you brought it up. Are there freelance writing gigs available to expats who don't speak Mandarin? I wouldn't be doing that to make a ton of cash so much as to have a few clips to put on my resume from my time in China so it's not a total journalistic black hole. And are there certain provinces where such writing gigs would be more readily available?

And you say my experiences would open doors if I'm satisfied with being a one-trick-pony and a freelancer -- do you mean to say that experience in China wouldn't make me qualified for any staff jobs at a news outlet? Why is this the case? There's a tons of sites, papers and trade mags that cover China regularly, so I figured that meant there were jobs doing so. Is this not the case? Why?

[ProduceSection]

Couple things I neglected to mention above. My wanting to go overseas is less of a desire than it is a compulsion. I've thought about it since midway through college and it's been nagging me since, and it's the sort of itch that will stay with me for a long time if I don't scratch it. That I'm dissatisfied with where I am currently only makes such a leap easier.

And as for why China, my reasons are two-fold: first, I feel like China would be the biggest disruption to my current routine. It seems to me, at least anecdotally, that among the major Asian states (counting Korea and Japan as the others) China is the furthest from the West in day-to-day lifestyle. If I'm wrong, though, please let me know. Secondly, with China's emergence as a superpower, I feel like familiarity with its culture and language would be more marketable in the West than similar knowledge of other Asian countries. Not that I expect to market it or have it aid me directly in my career, just that it would be the most likely to do so. Again, if that's not the case, please let me know.

Thanks again.

[Denim-Maniac]

[Bud Powell]

In order to be a journalist in China, you will need a journalist visa. There are successful western journalists in China --- James Fallows for one--- who writes for the American market. (I think he recently returned to the U.S. He was a regular contributor to NPR).

I was thinking that you'd want to write about China for an American/western market. I have no idea how you'd go about being a western journalist in China. I'd imagine that it would not always be a pleasant task. Western journalists are restricted in what they may write about.

I don't know about getting a journalist's visa, but this might help: http://id.china-embassy.org/eng/xwmtfw/jzqzsq/

I highly doubt that you'd be allowed to work as a teacher AND a journalist simultaneously.

At this point in your teaching endeavors is to get the requisite two years' relevant teaching experience.

FYI: Living and working in China is no walk in the park.

[ProduceSection]

Thanks, Denim and Bud. I'll go post by post.

Denim -- As far as speaking Chinese, I didn't expect to be able to pass as a native speaker or anything, just to have a functional understanding i.e. be able to carry on a basic conversation, read news stories and have a general understanding, be able to write a little bit. I figured if I take classes, do some diligent solo studying and regularly practice in my day-to-day life, this would be achievable. Is that not so?

And as far as savings, I was under the impression it's common for teachers to be able to put away at least a few hundred a month, if they offer some private lessons in addition to their regular job. Is this not accurate, or is this something that's only possible after a few years of work? I've only got basic notions of what teaching in China would entail, so please forgive my ignorance -- that's why I'm here.

Bud -- I'm afraid I'm a little confused. You mentioned in your first post that you've done some "locally published" work. I took this to mean you teach in China and had done some work for outlets over there, but I guess I misinterpreted. What I'm getting from this latest post is that I wouldn't be able to get any freelance work and, if I did, wouldn't be able to do it legally. Am I interpreting this correctly? What is your circumstance and what sort of work have you done? And is that something I would be able to duplicate?

And as far as China not being a walk in the park, if I gave off the impression that I'm expecting it to be a breeze, I didn't mean to. I'm expecting it to be the hardest thing I've ever done, and that's a big part of why I want to do it.

Thanks.

[wangdaning]

The language issue is going to be a big one. You might get the ability to communicate orally, but reading news stories is going to take you some time. Even Chinese have issues with this.

Personally, I studied Chinese as my major. It has helped, but it is by no means a substitute for having grown up here. I can catch on to what people talk about, but it takes time. China is the last place I would go to learn Chinese.

[Denim-Maniac]