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[vabeckele]

Tenancy agreements in Vietnam - Landlord pro.

This is my 5th house in just under a year, and in each one there has been an issue that has led me to seek, not a better property, but a better relationship with a landlord.
Being a humble English teacher, the salubrious accommodations on offer, that start at a thousand bucks are out of the question. So one makes do. However, I would like to present my case to you and see what you all make of Vietnamese law in regards to tenancy agreements.

I had a meeting with a lawyer today that basically told me, '' you bought it, so now you keep it".

This has what has transpired: I saw a nice house that looked, on the surface quite nice and fully funished. I had a couple of requests of an air conditioner be fitted and a patio door. The landlady gladly took my 10 million deposit with the promise of delivering these goods within a week.... I moved in.
What I found was incredible; the two matresses that had now been stripped of the bed sheets were so dirty that I wouldn't have my dog sleep on them - now, later, hundreds of flies started to appear from one of these materesses. One of the two beds was broken, but both were without matresses now anyway - 7 mill for a new bed.
The kitchen cabinets on closer inspection were rotting from the inside out and had maggots living deep within the timber frames - another 1 mill.
I hired a team of five cleaners, because the landlady did not clean the house as promised. It took these guys two whole days to clean the place; the cleaners themselves openly admitted never having seen such a filthy place before, and would have charged more if they had known - 1.3 mill.
Eventually, after 2 weeks or so the air conditioners arrived and were mounted. To my surprise, after they had been fitted the landlord called me asking me to pay 7 mill as she didn't have the money. The same with the patio door; upon completion, 2.6 mill.
I was also supposed to get a t.v. - yes you guessed it, IT HAD GONE - a new tv - 7 mill.
The landlady also wanted to keep one of my rooms for her stuff while she wa in transition - a month later some of the stuff is still there.
I complained, and asked for my money back as none of the obligations of the contract had been fullfilled. Of course, that money had long gone. I was stuck - my only alternative was to offer, what I thought were reasonable terms; to start the contract from the day her stuff was moved out of the room. This was declined emphatically. As was any compensation, for fixing, cleaning, maintenence, and re-furnishing the house etc, - basic requirements for any living quarters.
To the lawyers office I go, "you moved in and accepted it", was the only advice.

ANOTHER:

My partner and I had lived next door to the very same policeman that is now causing us trouble. We lived for 4 months under 'his watch' and all seemed to be well; he even introduced us to a new house, took a few million in commission from the owner and left us to our own devices. For a while...
Now he is withholding my partner's registration book, complained to my partner that she should not gone to the police station to register and refuses to release it. This has a severe consequence: if this registration cannot be done, her daughter cannot attend school because as she is not legally here.
I have at all times, requested, from all authorities, the necessary documents to be ‘legal’ in Vietnam:
1. Policeman and authorities accept the two of us under their nose with no formal procedure.
2. Policeman takes a fee from both the landlord and the tenants and again fails to declare any legal residency.
3. Policeman complains when we try to do so and withholds registration books.
4. Policeman refuses any assistance with any violation of both public and private laws, as these laws have been bought by the neighbours.
5. Policeman wants another 10 million as punishment.
6. Taxes must be paid to the authorities, but now with the threat of some kind of retribution from the policeman, his office, and now the landlord (taxes).
All the while this is happening the authorities, the very same who were paid a commission, failed to inform me of the house having been the centre of a major drugs and prostitution ring prior to my moving in. The neighbours urinate against the side of the house, park their bikes, drink, and smoke and try to sell coffee under my kitchen window and along the whole length of the house. I’ve had a security guard inside my house swearing and insulting my partner, asking for protection money to stop this. All this seems incredulous, but I can assure you it is all too real for me.
I am also trying to get a small business up and running - Trying to find the funds for all this while trying to please both sides of the fence is proving impossible. I am just barely managing ‘going back to basics’, while trying to get settled.
I cannot see how anything can function when even at this stage of the game a person gets fleeced by such underhanded, short-sighted officials motivated only by personal gain. I am just a teacher.

There are many more from where these two came from.

[Ramen]

Wow! Sorry to hear all your troubles. I once rented a two story home with a backyard for 7 million. And it was fully furnished. Signed a lease for 6 months. Paid the final two months rent with my deposit. I ended up moving to a guest house owned by an American and his viet wife due to security reason and the police hassle. At the guest house, housekeeping, laundry service, and breakfast were included with the rent. Never had any problems when I had guest(s) stay overnight. I also had full access to their kitchen with modern cookwares and appliances.

But that was 8 years ago.

If I were you, I'd cut my loses and get the heck out of there. Negotiate with the crook for your partner's registration book and get out.

[Mushroom Druid]

Sorry to hear about these negative experienes, vbackele.

There are many horror stories with landlords. Saigon and Hanoi are both bad, but there seems to be more problems in Hanoi.

I have had a problem in every apartment I have lived in, although less of problems than you have had.

Just my .02 cents.

I never sign a lease, and only pay month to month.

I never give a deposit.

This does mean that I rent small furnished apartments instead of houses that often require a lease and deposit.

[bobpen]

Thanks for sharing your experiences with all of us to learn from. It's a real contribution to expats in general. It's good reading not only for all but especially for newer folks that must learn the ropes fast!

[ExpatLuke]

Those stories are cringe worthy, the type you often find online, but never have any personal experience with day to day.

A few questions... where are you living? I've never heard of this type of thing happening in the cities, but have read some stories similar occurring in the smaller towns and villages.

[vabeckele]

I Hanoi, I had one landlady try to steal 30 million VND off of me. This was the deposit money I used to secure the place. After, yet again more problems, such as electricity, water, furniture, other utilities, legality and on and on I wanted out (the police refused me to live there). The landlady said she would not be in Hanoi ever again and my money had gone.

Luckily and just by pure chance I had called an agent and this agent was hungry enough to threaten this landlady with various means. This meant I got most of my money back but not all. I was lucky, as I had only been in Hanoi for 3 months and knew nothing of the place.

Another:

The first place I lived in I thought was great; a three bedroomed house in Long Bien. It became annoying though when I found a man, sometimes a woman just hanging out in my home. One time, late at night, while I was watching TV (naked) I looked over my right shoulder and there was a greasy looking gut in a wife beater grinning at me. I also got quite confused when my electricity bill was over 2 million VND in the winter. I checked out the wiring outside the house, and although I am no electrician, I believe my cable was delivering electricity to at least two other houses.

Vietnam truly is a land of disbelief. I can't blame the few that fail to understand what can and does happen here.

[mark_in_saigon]

Totally agree with the gentleman about a deposit. The most we should do is pay first month and last month. We should clearly explain to them that the greatest danger of non performance comes from the ownership’s side, not the tenant’s. I had one owner recently who said a big deposit was necessary because of the danger of theft of the fridge and the aircon. Like a foreigner is going to come to VN and gleefully carry this stuff away, hoping he can never be tracked down. We have to politely tell them that we are not like that, the westerner is not going to risk going to a VN prison over some used appliances, indeed the real risk is that the ownership will find a way to not return the deposit. They already know it too. If they want a reasonable and fair business deal, we should offer it to them, if they do not, then we should politely walk away. As a rule of thumb, I would say 90% of all potential transactions of importance will be poorly managed on their end. Poorly managed to the point where the best thing for you to do is to eventually exit the deal and try again elsewhere. If you never paid more than what the deal was worth on a current basis, you are okay. If you paid for future performance, you are most often in trouble. Paying big in advance even increases the pressure on them to crash the deal, compared to getting paid on a regular basis. If they could all kill the goose that laid the golden egg, you would see nothing but dead geese around here. They are forced to act that way, that is their system.

The rental market is a total mess. The VN owners/agent mostly have the same mentality you see when driving (and in many other aspects of life here), how can they find any way to get a slight advantage without regard for the fairness to or safety of others. Those people are higher up the economic scale than the average citizen, and the higher up one is, the more this mindset usually takes hold. It can take a long time to find someone who will treat you fairly on a rental, and there is nothing that any govt agency is going to do to rectify any abuse you suffered.

I think a very realistic way of looking at rentals, jobs and relationships here is that you always are prepared for the worst, almost expect it, and do not let them get ahead on money. Be fair on what you give, but if you give a year’s worth of rental or something, the temptation is too great for them. I know we have to work an entire month without pay, which should be the limit, and we should only do that when we see an ongoing deal where other people prove that people actually get paid at the end of the month. With a house, we should at most pay first month last month, with the other details in writing, and the things they promise in place. Otherwise, future promises of aircon or whatever are in danger of being a shock.

When we first come over, we tend to bring our western mentalities of what is reasonable, and so we often believe them (assume they will keep their promises) when we should not. We do not have to treat them like they are all scammers, we just have to be prepared for that to be the case. I read a very cute line once about how S E Asians view promises and statement of fact, don’t remember it exactly, but it is something along the line of “another version of the truth so that people are not upset”. They think it is fine to say something to make you happy now, then later, when their actions are different, well, it was not a lie, it was just a different version of the truth at that time. Seems they actually believe this as well.

This is a nice place to live if you have money, but to invest your western money here is very shaky and not worth the risk. The average guy who invests in some money making scheme here is going to lose his money. The loan to someone in need with a sad story will not be repaid, it will likely be a sad story for you as well. Teaching is fine, lots of jobs for the folks who know what they are doing, though it is not as good for the backpackers as it used to be. You can be very happy here, but never count on anything happening that they say will happen. Just be able to live without their income, their promises and their education system. Work when it works, when it turns bad, move on to the next arrangement. Costs are about a third of what they are in the west, and so with a realistic attitude, it is a lovely little deal. Great place to safely pad your retirement with low costs, easy to find work, as well as enjoyable experiences. Terrible place to sink your dough.

[spycatcher reincarnated]

In 20 years in HCMC I have never had a problem with a landlord. Admittedly been married to a local for the last 11 years and my wife takes care of rent these days.

[I'm With Stupid]

Yeah, I've never had any problems with a landlord not returning rent, although I've heard a few stories. More common amongst my friends in landlords trying to claim that your things are actually their's (despite an itemised list being included in the contract). I try not to move too much, because the more you move, the greater the chance of running into someone dodgy. But I've always paids 2 months deposit and rent in advance. I don't really have a massive problem with that, although I can see why some might. I've also agreed to move in on the condition that certain things were bought for the flat and they always were.

The worst I've had was a landlord who insisted on doing all of the work himself. The result was an electrical system that would constantly short out until he finally admitted defeat after a couple of weeks and hired an electrician. But even he was a great bloke other than that.

[vabeckele]

I couldn't make this stuff up if I tried:

I posted another one on here just over a year ago that had the landlord locking the entrance to the apartments at around 21.30-22.00 and nobody had a key to open it except him. I don't think we need to debate on lunacy of that policy. And, because I had put down 3 months rent I wasn't about to walk away from that little number too quickly either.

[cb400]

[vabeckele]

[Ramen]

[1st Sgt Welsh]

[vabeckele]