Job Discussion Forums

[mark_in_saigon]

http://www.thanhniennews.com/index/pages/20130822-english-teaching-is-white-right.aspx

"There is a distinct pecking order in the ESL world, with white Americans reigning supreme. They are followed by their British, Australian, New Zealander and South African counterparts; black Americans, Hispanics and Asians, and Africans bring up the rear. "


I think she should break down Asians a bit, you have VK, Filipinos and VN, maybe a few others, I know a Malaysian teacher out there. I would also quibble that various Europeans belong in that list, maybe lumped together where she has Hispanics. We have a smattering of Italians, French, Germans and other nationalities who are Caucasian and get credit for that.

One of the things about this whole situation I have trouble understanding is if they indeed prefer the North American accent (she left Canadians off of the list, maybe she is lumping them as Americans), then why are they working counter to that with all the British recordings they listen to? For most of the learners, it is not dark in the park, it is dahk in the pahk.

Back to the list, I am sure this is distasteful to lots of folks who are used to the western style of non discrimination. Of course, over here, there are far greater abuses of their own people than this, like how people less than 1.5 mtr are rejected for so many jobs as just one example, and there are other forms of abuse so much worse, as we all know. Wherever we are in their perceptions on this list of desirability, I think we should always remember that we actually have a premium placed on us BECAUSE we are foreign and ARE native speakers of English, so it is not like we are being pushed down the list, it is instead some of us are just being pushed up even higher than others. I think the worst thing about all this is how some fairly competent natives who speak our language at a fairly high level and of course speak the native language with great skill still find it very difficult to get work as an English teacher at any level, earning perhaps 20% of what we do if they find it.

[skarper]

I think 'North America' is a continent and therefore includes Canadians.

I'm curious where Irish come in the pecking order but I'm guessing this is a pretty rubbish article with spurious data and no scientific method.

There is a marked preference for certain nationalities but I'm not sure it really matters.

The big split over NEST and nonNEST teachers is more meaningful and IMO totally justified.

Usually nonNESTs have marginal or at best flawed command of English. This is due to anyone with a real command of the language will work in another more lucrative field. Those who end up killing time in EFL are generally unmotivated and highly unskilled teachers. There are notable exceptions but the ratio is about 10 bad to 1 good nonNEST.

Plenty of NESTs are rubbish teachers too and the ratio could be even higher than 10-1.

Many South Africans speak English as a second or even a third language - this means they often struggle as English teachers. Some South Africans I knew in Korea would repeatedly ask me quite basic vocabulary questions. So did a teacher I knew in Hanoi who was British according to his passport but had grown up in Spain and spoke English fluently but not at the level needed to teach above intermediate level. He was able to make up for his limitations by extra effort though and seemed to be doing OK.

[mark_in_saigon]

North America is indeed a continent, which happens to include Mexico. Her article stated "Americans", which usually means the U.S. to folks over here.

Yeah, not only the Irish but also the Scots deserve some special consideration.

10 to 1? I did not think it was THAT bad. I do think a lot of folks can be just fine with lower levels though, while not at all qualified for doing things like IELTS preparation. Seems like a different world to me, if you have good pronunciation and the right attitude, you may actually be better than folks who are able to teach high levels. So a teacher may be a rubbish teacher at one level and just fine at another, in my opinion.

Regardless of the scientific method, I think it is a fairly accurate of the biases here, which also do not hold to scientific method. It is almost the same as the informal list I have seen from China.

[LarueLarry]

I've had a few Vietnamese colleagues express the unfairness between foreign teacher salaries versus the Vietnamese teacher salary. I more or less agree with them, but I always remind them that it's their own people making the rules and standards.

I'm sure there's a lot that SOME Viet teachers can accomplish, much more so than their foreign counterparts. But at a higher level or dealing with students who plan to study abroad, a good, conscientious foreign teacher is much more essential.

[skarper]

People will always complain. It is our nature. Like us - if they don't like it they should take their skills were they are better rewarded...if they can find anywhere.

At the end of the day, the students want a native speaker teacher - not a Vietnamese or Viet Kieu however competent they may be [and many of them like us are not competent].

The best nonNEST I ever met was a Korean who had studied a year in London and done a CELTA equiv - I think the Trinity one which is if anything slightly better. He was excellent. Had great English and understood how to TEFL works. Nice guy too.

But he was very much the exception. Other nonNESTs I met were just filling in time, many had very poor English and most had zero teaching ability/training. They made even our weakest NESTs look good...

[8balldeluxe]

They favor English, then Americans, then Canadians, Aussies, Kiwis, then Philippines, followed by other Europeans who can fake an English accent, and then Scots.

[ExpatLuke]

Its not so surprising that they prefer the North American accent to me. Most of the schools here are conversation schools. The students want to learn how to talk like the people on all the movies they watch.

Id wager academic English pefers British English, but conversation schools and vocational schools will want American English.

[creeper1]

[mark_in_saigon]

[ExpatLuke]

Canadians and Americans are what is referred to as North American English. The two are actually very similar with a few exceptions in pronunciation. Mexico is a part of North America geographically but since they don't speak English they aren't included in "North American English."

New Zealand, Australia, and Ireland are all different countries but i can barely understand them most of the time. England English is much easier for me as an American to understand. Scottish and Welsh English is also vefficult to understand.

The pronunciation of these places is often abbreviated, cut short, and the vocabulary so full of regional slang that its almost useless in an international setting.

[mambawamba]

Perhaps this is true in Vietnam but worldwide this pecking order has certainly never been my experience!

British English with a neutral or soft regional accent is always the most desirable!

Generally any strong accent, including from the UK and the author of the original article's native South Africa, will be lower on the scale for desirability.

She should bear in mind that generally certain nationalities tend to work in certain countries and global economic fluctuations bring waves of teachers at different times. Schools need to fill vacancies and it's the law of supply and demand.

Mamba

[ExpatLuke]

I'm not sure what you mean by worldwide. Do you mean Europe? British English is certainly preferred there, but that might be more due to the ease of visa requirements within the EU.

Most of Asia definitely prefers American English. Many schools hire exclusively from North American countries because they can then market that to customers. I've never seen a school that hires exclusively British accents. Some might prefer it, but when was the last time you worked with an entire school of British staff inside Oriental Asia?

South America also teaches American English as the majority. So I'm curious as to what you mean by worldwide.

[mambawamba]

@expatluke

Worldwide as in the world.

Taught for over fifteen years on four continents and never seen a staff -even in the UK- which was made up exclusively of any one single nationality that's just not the nature of the TEFL beast!

I did say in my previous post that perhaps a wholly American staff was the norm in Vietnam, perhaps also in South America due to geographic location, but in my personal experience worldwide it's not been the norm.

Also I didn't say British accents I said British English with a neutral accent.

Mamba

[spiral78]

[skarper]

I suspect some folks are taking the Micky....don't rise to the bait - trollbait or other varieties.