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vabeckele
Joined: 19 Nov 2010
Posts: 439
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 Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:35 am Post subject: IELTS |
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Has anyone here taken the IELTS test?
The ministry of education wants me to take the test, and I'm pretty worried.
I have done these reading assignments and I will, without a doubt, make mistakes in the true/false/not given responses...AND...I know for sure my writing, without the aid of spelling and grammar checks, will fail to wow too.
Ordinarily, this shouldn't phase anyone, but as English teachers... |
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skarper
Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 477
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| Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:53 am Post subject: |
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This is a strange requirement and I for one would not get a perfect score. Probably manage a solid 7 with practice. Time limit is the issue and laziness in writing long hand - just never do it and frankly I think it's anachronistic to expect people to write without the aid of spell checking and grammar checking. You just never would nowadays. My handwriting is just outrageous nowadays too.
But I can't help answer this question - just give a vote of solidarity from an old English teacher. |
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BenE
Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 321
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| Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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This is very strange indeed. I've never heard of such a requirement. Normally to be an IELTS examiner there isn't any requirement to do the IELTS test unless a non native speaker applies.
Is there any specific reason why they asked you to do it? I know if you've had your education in a country overseas they can require it. |
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vabeckele
Joined: 19 Nov 2010
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| BenE wrote: |
This is very strange indeed. I've never heard of such a requirement. Normally to be an IELTS examiner there isn't any requirement to do the IELTS test unless a non native speaker applies.
Is there any specific reason why they asked you to do it? I know if you've had your education in a country overseas they can require it. |
The job requires either a TEFL of some kind or IELTS/TOEFL score at C1-C2 level. The second requirement is normally used for Vietnamese teaching English and a Vietnamese teacher must score 7.5 or above to be eligible. I am working with Vietnamese government officials and the rules were explained to me this way. In other words...to get round the fact [that] I do not have a TEFL, instead I go the Vietnamese way around the problem of being/becoming certified.
I was turned down for a good paid job in S.A. a while ago, because both of my degrees, while conducted through the medium of English, were both done abroad. Being British wasn't enough, had to have gone through the uni system there too - And before any of you lot start, no, my degrees were not paid for or from Belarus or some such failed state, but, rather from the no.1 country in the world when it comes to education (I'll give you a clue: it's cold).  |
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vabeckele
Joined: 19 Nov 2010
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| skarper wrote: |
This is a strange requirement and I for one would not get a perfect score. Probably manage a solid 7 with practice. Time limit is the issue and laziness in writing long hand - just never do it and frankly I think it's anachronistic to expect people to write without the aid of spell checking and grammar checking. You just never would nowadays. My handwriting is just outrageous nowadays too.
But I can't help answer this question - just give a vote of solidarity from an old English teacher. |
Thanks for the support - Easy to teach others, that is until you have to do it yourself.
7, won't cut it hence the worry. |
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skarper
Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 477
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| Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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I'm sure it would be easier, more useful and not much more expensive to do a CELTA. Language Link have or at least had a good program. ILA and Apollo are in on the racket too.
I wouldn't personally consider doing an IELTS exam. A lot of work, stress and massive loss of face when you come back with a 6.5! (like I might well do).
Do the CELTA or nothing if you ask me. |
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vabeckele
Joined: 19 Nov 2010
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| skarper wrote: |
I'm sure it would be easier, more useful and not much more expensive to do a CELTA. Language Link have or at least had a good program. ILA and Apollo are in on the racket too.
I wouldn't personally consider doing an IELTS exam. A lot of work, stress and massive loss of face when you come back with a 6.5! (like I might well do).
Do the CELTA or nothing if you ask me. |
Yes, when the time is right I will do the CELTA. To think, when I started teaching I had no idea what is was, now it is becoming more and more into focus and it is something I should do.
There is a big difference in time, effort and cost between the two. But once the cert is done it will carry a lot of weight, far more than a (poor) IELTS band score. I've got to get the timing right...One month off to study and not having to worry about work etc.. |
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skarper
Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 477
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| Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Indeed. It is an obvious step but you need to focus completely or it'll be overly stressful. |
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BenE
Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 321
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| Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| I agree. IELTS is a useless amount of hard work for any native speaker. I'd recommend you get a CELTA or other equivalent cert instead if that is the choice you have. It'd be worth a lot more and it won't expire after 2 years. |
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mark_in_saigon
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 837
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| Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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I would be quite interested in knowing how native speakers score on this. The best info I have is that some college grads in the U.K. were tested and averaged about 7.5. If you have not actually been teaching IELTS, that would be my expectation for the average native speaker, even perhaps the average English teacher over here. If you get to know the VN who score upwards of 8, you will find that they are not necessarily that skilled with English (they are certainly pretty good), but they have put a huge effort into learning frameworks and taking practice tests, and so they understand the process very well. My guess is about 1 band (or maybe a bit more) can be chalked up to knowing the process and being up to speed on what is expected.
Quite a bit about the test does not really reflect the way we actually use English in our daily lives, especially in writing and reading. One can be a very gifted writer and never dream of approaching a task the way IELTS calls for, writing with a time deadline, by hand, on a topic you do not know or care about, respecting the expectations of how the examiners think you should frame an answer rather than feeling free to just be creative.
Very hard for any of these tests to be that accurate. I am looking at the TOEIC test these days, and the ETS site (their mother ship) has got clear English errors on it. None of this stuff is as precise as they would have you believe, but the IELTS guys have done a great job of monetizing their test, gotta hand that to em. |
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vabeckele
Joined: 19 Nov 2010
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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| mark_in_saigon wrote: |
I would be quite interested in knowing how native speakers score on this. The best info I have is that some college grads in the U.K. were tested and averaged about 7.5. If you have not actually been teaching IELTS, that would be my expectation for the average native speaker, even perhaps the average English teacher over here. If you get to know the VN who score upwards of 8, you will find that they are not necessarily that skilled with English (they are certainly pretty good), but they have put a huge effort into learning frameworks and taking practice tests, and so they understand the process very well. My guess is about 1 band (or maybe a bit more) can be chalked up to knowing the process and being up to speed on what is expected.
Quite a bit about the test does not really reflect the way we actually use English in our daily lives, especially in writing and reading. One can be a very gifted writer and never dream of approaching a task the way IELTS calls for, writing with a time deadline, by hand, on a topic you do not know or care about, respecting the expectations of how the examiners think you should frame an answer rather than feeling free to just be creative.
Very hard for any of these tests to be that accurate. I am looking at the TOEIC test these days, and the ETS site (their mother ship) has got clear English errors on it. None of this stuff is as precise as they would have you believe, but the IELTS guys have done a great job of monetizing their test, gotta hand that to em. |
It is interesting - both Canada and Australia, for immigration purposes, require native English speakers in certain professions to take the IELTS test. Nurses from the UK working in Australia, for example have to take this; they get quite low scores considering they are native speakers, and like you stated, a lot of it is to do about knowing (not knowing) about the 'rubrics' of the test itself.
I have taught both IELTS and the American equivalent and have tested myself a couple of times. For some reason I read too much into the reading section and give inferred answers and end up with less than a 100 percent score. I have never attempted writing though. With no time limit and a dictionary it wouldn't be an issue but an hour for two essays is not easy for anyone. Listening, likewise can be an issue because it is...s l o w...and the mind just starts to wonder. Speaking doesn't test our eloquence, rather just to be able to voice thought patterns, so it would be best, I think, just to rattle on until the examiner gets bored with it.
I always tell my students they have an advantage over native speakers when it comes to starting university studies. I never got that kind of training to get me ready to be able to present my ideas in academic style and learn to extrapolate info from various sources. When I look back upon most of what I did at undergrad level I want to hide my face away. |
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just noel
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 168
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| Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| mark_in_saigon wrote: |
| I would be quite interested in knowing how native speakers score on this. The best info I have is that some college grads in the U.K. were tested and averaged about 7.5. |
Even native English speakers would have to prepare and use many of the strategies to get a 7.5.
| Quote: |
| If you have not actually been teaching IELTS, that would be my expectation for the average native speaker, even perhaps the average English teacher over here. If you get to know the VN who score upwards of 8, you will find that they are not necessarily that skilled with English (they are certainly pretty good), |
An IELTS score of 8 is very good. The scoring criteria to reach an 8 is very narrow. You only have to miss a couple of questions to go down in your band score. |
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TRH
Joined: 27 Oct 2011
Posts: 340
Location: Hawaii
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| Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:42 am Post subject: |
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http://www.slate.com/articles/life/education/2013/10/sat_essay_section_problems_with_grading_instruction_and_prompts.html
Above is a link to an essay about the writing portion of the US based SAT and how high school students are taught to master the test but not to be good writers. "Teaching the test" is certainly more prevalent here than most western countries but it is certainly not unique to Vietnam. A lot of the problems tied to why the IELTS test could be hard for native speakers are the same as those that make the SAT unrealistic.
| mark_in_saigon wrote: |
| ....the IELTS guys have done a great job of monetizing their test, gotta hand that to em. |
In his characteristic style, Mark has understated things. I am sceptically curious about to what extent the Cambridge EFL system is really tied to the academic institution. Is it truly the function of a full scholarly EFL department complete with graduate programs? Alternatively, is it a stand alone for profit corporate entity that exists to run CELTA licensing, IELTS tests, and to publish and sell books while using the name and perhaps returning some level of revenue to the university? I suspect that it is more the latter. Does Cambridge University even have an EFL department? I looked at the CELTA website and I don't think you can take the CELTA anywhere on the Cambridge University campus even as a non-credit course. |
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mark_in_saigon
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 837
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| Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:20 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
If you have not actually been teaching IELTS, that would be my expectation for the average native speaker, even perhaps the average English teacher over here. If you get to know the VN who score upwards of 8, you will find that they are not necessarily that skilled with English (they are certainly pretty good),
An IELTS score of 8 is very good. The scoring criteria to reach an 8 is very narrow. You only have to miss a couple of questions to go down in your band score. |
What I mean is that while they are certainly decent enough English users (for VN) they can still have a hard time communicating with the native speaker on a broad range of normal topics. I get the feeling that many of them make IELTS the main focus of their studies and they have this somewhat robotic and mechanical process for memorizing and outputting their language. In order to quickly reach this level, they have sacrificed learning English in a more natural and complete way. Sometimes people who deal with foreigners a lot in retail settings can understand us better than these high scorers, yet if those same people took the test, they would not achieve those high scores.
There was a very interesting study done on Asians who went to the west for continuing their educations, after 2 or 3 years of studying in Australia, their IELTS scores showed no significant improvement compared to the scores they achieved before they left Asia. Some actually regressed in score. Some went up marginally. The overall average increase was a big disappointment. To me, this just reflects the artificial increase in scores clever Asians can achieve by focusing on the test like it was the holy grail. Those VN who net an 8 cannot understand us any better than a native speaker who actually would score a 6.5 or 7, in other words, a less well educated westerner.
The students here do not focus on achieving a broad understanding of English, they focus on learning the relatively narrow skills required to game the test. It is just another manifestation of the short term thinking over here. Do what benefits me now, not what would be best for the long term. |
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vabeckele
Joined: 19 Nov 2010
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:55 am Post subject: |
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| TRH wrote: |
http://www.slate.com/articles/life/education/2013/10/sat_essay_section_problems_with_grading_instruction_and_prompts.html
Above is a link to an essay about the writing portion of the US based SAT and how high school students are taught to master the test but not to be good writers. "Teaching the test" is certainly more prevalent here than most western countries but it is certainly not unique to Vietnam. A lot of the problems tied to why the IELTS test could be hard for native speakers are the same as those that make the SAT unrealistic.
| mark_in_saigon wrote: |
| ....the IELTS guys have done a great job of monetizing their test, gotta hand that to em. |
In his characteristic style, Mark has understated things. I am sceptically curious about to what extent the Cambridge EFL system is really tied to the academic institution. Is it truly the function of a full scholarly EFL department complete with graduate programs? Alternatively, is it a stand alone for profit corporate entity that exists to run CELTA licensing, IELTS tests, and to publish and sell books while using the name and perhaps returning some level of revenue to the university? I suspect that it is more the latter. Does Cambridge University even have an EFL department? I looked at the CELTA website and I don't think you can take the CELTA anywhere on the Cambridge University campus even as a non-credit course. |
Interesting article that reflects my opinion of the IELTS system too.
You can do the CELTA at Cambridge. A friend, who is in fact a graduate from the uni, did his CELTA there too.
I started, on this board in fact, how I felt the very same as you, and still do to a degree. However, when I think of all of the materials Cambridge provides for us teachers, I have to hand over the baton to them, because it is no small feat to compile research findings into language learning materials that are again delivered into neat little packages for us to walk into a classroom with - These guys know what they are doing and do it well.
But I sympathise, how the hell can a complete level book set with all of the bells and whistles thrown in cost in excess of 500 dollars? And, although I'm going to have to bend over for this one, the delivery of the CELTA course is outdated and mirrors Britain's past imperialistic empire mindset, which has since long gone. Learning should actually be an enjoyable experience, not one where after a month one is ready to drop. |
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