Job Discussion Forums

[Harbin]

Below are a few excerpts from a private conversation someone and I recently had about teaching EFL in China.

[Non Sequitur]

A private language centre possibly isn't the mainstream of English teaching in China.
The uni/vocational sector is probably where most FTs work and between my uni English majors and my vocational tourism/hotel/hospitality majors, the majority are motivated about English. It's their job passport.

[Bud Powell]

China will always be here and the teaching standards won't improve anytime soon, so do the CELTA and get 2 years of experience before you come to China if you're worried about your long term career potential.

A "career" as a teacher in China with just a CELTA and two years experience? The OP is under the impression that standards are low throughout China. Not so. This may be true of some language schools and bottom-tier colleges and universities that have no foreign language departments.

I think it is absurd to advise or encourage someone to attempt a career as an English teacher based upon these assumptions.

[doogsville]

When I was younger I used to confuse my experience with that of every other human on the planet too. This led me to believe that my experience and the beliefs that came from it must hold true for everyone else. This caused problems, and occasionally confrontations, when other people disagreed with me. It also caused me to make broad, sweeping statements about the nature of things. I'm getting better, though I'm far from perfect, at understanding that my view of the world is just that, mine. While some things, the weather, the time of year, are the same for all of us, a lot of what we experience is not only subjective, but unique. While a lot of what the OP says is true of some places and some people, can anyone really claim to know exactly what the situation is regarding EFL in China, or anything anywhere for that matter? Apart from anything else, the world is ever changing, and what seems true now, may be totally different in two years time.

Still, what better place to share your private conversation and thoughts about how the world works than on a public Internet forum, eh?

[Non Sequitur]

I think there are worthwhile China ESL conversations to be had here and OP has talked about the language centre pathway.
I've raised the public uni/vocational pathway and there must be others including those rare beasts the international school teachers who seldom visit Dave's.
I think the common ground for all of them is:
'Do they lead to a long term career future in China?'
and
'If they did (lead to a long term future), would it benefit China and why then does the "5-year rule" exist to prevent/discourage it?'

[Denim-Maniac]

I thought there were some valid points ... Im sure this was posted for further debate and if that includes some sweeping generalisations then so be it.

Ill add one of my own, and that is depending upon your definition of career, China might not be the best place for an EFL one. Sure you can make a place for yourself in China, but this may not transfer very well to a career in EFL outside of China.

My example is based on applying for a job in a decent language school outside China and one of the application tasks was to plan a lesson using any aspect of the present perfect using adverbial time markers.

If you are halfway serious about EFL, and a career in it, I think being able to do such tasks such be bread and butter but very few EFL teachers in China could do this task easily or competently in my opinion. (Based on my experience of working with around 50 FT's during my time here). The skills that are needed to work successfully in many teaching contexts are rarely called upon for most teaching jobs in China. And thats why its not great for a career.

[Non Sequitur]

[beckyshaile]

[Denim-Maniac]

[Sashadroogie]

Very good point, Denim-Maniac. It has always seemed odd to me that there are places in the world which divide something called oral English from teaching grammar. Might as well decide to teach vocabulary as a separate course too. Perhaps even teaching listening without any language input? All seem to rest on premises just as decidedly shaky...

[Harbin]

[Harbin]

[Non Sequitur]

Well, given that often the FTs instruction from his/her school is 'just get them to talk' and the sole resource provided is a book of dialogues, I don't think the split is something created by the FT.
If we see adding value as important then giving our students something that their CTs don't give, has value.
No matter how insightful and vivid the grammar lessons provided by other posters may be, they are still duplicating what their students have had from their CTs since Middle School.

[LarssonCrew]

Harbin, in fairness, I do use a 2 or 3 minute introduction to my class to 'switch' the students on, just mentioning what I had to eat, any small stories that they might find funny.

Just to kinda get them into the swing of things.

And also, in one of my 2 hour university classes, everyone had whizzed through the prepared work, so with about 10 minutes left I asked if anyone had any questions then said they could go.

The next class, the monitor approached and said that if we had any spare time, they'd like me to speak about my life, which places I'd visited, what I like to eat etc. just because they'd never heard a foreigners ideas and general life living before.[/b]

[cormac]

I think the main problem here is the grouping of all EFL teaching into one area. There is a large difference between the objectives in teaching beginners English or an advanced business english course. In the beginners course, there will be a requirement to teach grammar. In the business course, there is absolutely no need for it.

I see posters posting massive generalisations about EFL teaching. I've done a number of the language mills. A few of the biggies, and alot smaller joints. Some focus on mass production (get them in, and out asap), and those that focus on quality (in depth english learning with definite concentration on all areas). It really comes down to the expectations of the students, the money they have and the time limitations they have. There are some rather serious retarted expectations about the actual speed of learning, and TBH alot of that comes down to the course consultants (sales). However some still rests with the Chinese people themselves.

Then add in the companies like New Oriental who dont really teach English. They teach people how to simply pass an exam like Ielts. Ive taught students to pass Ielts getting an 8, and they can barely hold a reasonable convesation outside of a set environment. It drives me nuts to sit in class teaching a student, and in the classroom beside me the chinese teacher is teaching english through chinese.

My issue with threads like this is that FTs dismiss the importance of conversation ability. You can have perfect grammar and have absolutely no ability in logic. Forming a sentence is more than just grammar. You can also have perfect grammar and have absolutely no confidence to speak. IMHO the purpose of a language is so that people who hear you will actually understand you. Considering the limited time available to teach students I'll sacrifice perfect grammar, and throw in the ability to actually speak clearly.

IF you're hired to teach technical english, great. Teach it. But most of us are hired to teach conversational english or survival english. So conversation, and comprehension plays a major part. Grammar is involved but its secondary. This is why most schools have Chinese teachers to provide the grammar. They dont want us to teach it. If youre not happy with that, find a school that does care.