Job Discussion Forums

[Happy Everyday]

Inlfation for cost of living is rising in China, especially in larger cities. If you want to buy a home, then good luck. Some cities have tripled housing prices within the past few years. Chinese salaries have risen too, but not in pace with inflation.

FT uni contracts used to be more similar to western Unis during the 90s. Classes for teaching in China went from 3 classes to 6, then 8, then 12...

The norm for training centres in the early 2000s was around 5,000rmb for 20 hours. I still see this today. I'll sometimes see 7,000 - 10,000 for 12 - 16 classes. But it's become rare, more and more rare.

I see insane jobs that require 20 or more hours with only one day off. A "half" day off does not exist. Either you're off or you're not. In USA, teaching 2 or 3 classes in an academic year is enough for full time, enough to scrape and living, have medical benifits, and save a little. But it's not enough to get rich. Taiwan is similar to western academia. Some of my friends have similar offers in China. Mostly, what I see in China is awful. Or standard. The "standard" has been the same for years, but the cost of living is not frozen. On top of that, visas are becoming slightly more of a challenge. Some of the FT here are content and living a happy life. Some are teaching 12 classes or less and are making the near 5,000rmb range.

Other people here claim to be making a lot of money. I don't really see that unless you can log a lot of hours (good luck with your throat) or work for an international school.

Is it realistic that the salary should be 8k - 10k or more for 16 classes or less in a Chinese school (international cities). A large chunk of that would cover rent.

There are a lot of variables about the school location, yadda yadda yadda. I used to think China was an awesome deal. But these days I think not. Do the FT here really have good jobs in China? By good, I mean more than 8k - 10k a month for 16 classes or less? Without having to slave in an office for 40 hours a week. Honestly, it seems impossible to find in China these days. Teaching in a western country or in the Middle East makes more dollars and sense.

If the mods want to delete this thread, no problem. It would be cool to hear if anyone has a teaching post that covers their needs and provides a lifestyle similar to academic insitutions in the west (the global standard).

[Happy Everyday]

The thread isn't to debate or point out regional cost of living. I'm simply wondering of the job requirements are just getting worse and worse in China every year and if anyone has it reasonably good.

I know one respected FT on Dave's who currently teaches 12 classes a week or less, has 3 or 4 consecutive days off, housing stipend, work visa, and bonuses. His salary is in the 5k/month range or slightly less.

Another friend made more than 10k at a uni. 16 classes a week with weekends. That was four years ago. The admin was unusually hard on him, and he had to do a lot of class prep. He earned his salary. That kind of stress-- people giving you constant sh** because they're paying you-- doesn't seem worth it.

[Zero]

FTs teaching in China are required to have a bachelor's degree and maybe, sometimes, a TEFL certificate. It doesn't make sense to compare it to academia in the west, where you'll need at least a master's to get into university teaching. (And probably a PhD to get the working conditions you're describing, with health insurance, low hours, etc.)

If money is the priority, then view your university job in China for what it is -- part-time work. Fill the rest of your time with private lessons etc.

But there aren't many jobs where you'll get the trifecta of high pay, low demands and low barriers to entry.

[7969]

[The Great Wall of Whiner]

Hear hear! Absolutely inflation is surpassing wages which are not keeping pace.

When prices go up and salaries do not, what's the incentive to stay on?

[rogerwilco]

I have been reading a lot of university and college contracts recently, and many of them paying the same 5,000 a month for up to 25 classes a week.
It just keeps getting worse every year.

5,000 a month used to be for 12 to 16 classes a week, now it seems as if many are at 20 to 25 a week.

[chinanoodles]

It will get worse until Uni's and training centers can not fill the positions they offer.

[Happy Everyday]

@Zero, I'm very familiar with academia in USA. Some of us got our first TA job... before starting our masters degree. PhD means you can go for tenure. A lot of grad students and phD candidates will teach a few courses, and it pays the bills. The problem is time. If you spend too much time doing things not related to your research, then it may take longer to graduate or effect the quality of your research.

@7969 -- thanks. It feels like you're saying "it's OK if job conditions get worse every year." I know that's not your meaning. When you say, 'now it's 2011.' I'm not sure what you mean precisely. See, it seems like conditions are the same or getting worse. Even though my resume is getting better with time and experience, the job offers in China are not. I like China very much. It's really surprising to see so many crappy jobs being offered. Maybe you're right. Those who are happy are mostly offline.

China feels centrally controlled. Even though there is much market for a FT, the working conditions feel as though the market forces are not determining the salary. Rising hours more and more? I'll pass. Feels weird that many options are that or none at all. I've expereinced something similar with finding housing in China too. Market forces were not in control. It seems as though prices were printed in a book, and there was little room to negotiate. Hey, I could be wrong.

Let me put it another way. My years in China got me invited to speak at a Tier 1 university MBA class about doing business in China. China's economy has resulted in a hiring effort that gurantees an excellent paying job in all sectors. It's for Chinese only. The middle to upper middle class owns a home, a car, and makes salaries in dollars. The rise in economy mirrors the economy in Hollywood and Silicon Valley. If you're not part of the skilled labor, then you'll be kind of poor as a teacher. Yet the salary of teacher's has gone up over ten years, not decreased. It sounds like some cities have resonably raised FT salaries. A lot of the job ads I see online are the same or worse than what was available seven or eight years ago.

"You can expect at least 7k for less than 16 classes a week." That sounds resonable, not great but reasonable. I do not see that offered a lot. I very respectfully, 7969, I do like you, think that it being year 2011 doesn't ecuse worsening conditions. IF that's the case. Perhaps the job conditions have kept up a little bit with inflation. I've only found three jobs that have, and they're wayyyyyy out in the countryside. Despite the popularity to learn Chinese, I'm thinking it is a waste of time for foreigners to do so, including most FT jobs too. It doesn't seem that mainland China cares much about the quality of workers, and that is represented in the quality of jobs available to expats. I see a handful of people who teach a few hours and have plenty of time to enjoy life while earning enough to do ok. I hear about people who can rack up the hours and make a strong salary. Most of the jobs I see online appear to be expoloitive. I've seen very few mainland opportunities for expats worth striving towards. My Chinese classmates and associates, however, are making bank.

[7969]

[Happy Everyday]

@The Great Wall of Whiner -- what do you consider a reasonable salary and number of classes? Let's narrow it down to large cities.

[sainthood]

I partly agree, and partly disagree.

There are the ok and good jobs out there. I'm about to move jobs (and cities) to get paid more than double what I would be on still here. And that's what I was looking for. But, IMHO, it's still not quite the value I could be worth.

OTOH, I saw WAAAAYYYYYY too many crappity jobs being advertised that I just skipped over! CELTA and Master's should be worth something, and all to often, I saw that it made maybe 500-1000RMB/month difference. That sucked. Too often I saw those jobs for 5000, or 6000... and the better ones at 8500/9000... and yes, inflation is hitting, but the pay isn't!

And, unfortunately, there are so many people wanting to escape back home, that they'll take the 4000RMB jobs - so they'll keep offering those 4000RMB jobs, and we won't see a realistic rise in pay.... for years!!!

I want my years of study and experience to mean something - financially.... it's not going to happen here!

(but, it must be said, it may not mean much in too many places - unless it's in privates!)

[Happy Everyday]

@7969 -- what you say is true. Yet China has become a rich land... for Chinese only. It's become expensive. Meanwhile, working conditions for expats are worsening. Our home countries allow us freedom to choose our careers and opportunities to advance. China does not, not much anyway. One of the cool things about living in China was having a comfortable life. You didn't need to be rich. It was ok. It was realistic for FT to have a family too. Now China is looking worse than western countries. Yeah, I've seen massive poverty and homeless. For example, I saw thousands-- I mean thousands of homeless people in LA. It was a mix of immigrants, unemployed, former students, and people who lost their homes. It was ugly. Be that as it may be, I continue to see opportunities for well educated people. I see Masters and PhD degrees working in lesser jobs. Yet I also see American towns where working in a call center will earn you enough to rent a house. If the job is steady, you can get a loan and buy a home. I see oppportunities for Chinese people to do this in USA, Europe, and possibly other nations. I do not see China living up to their so called proclamations for "cooperation and exchange." What was once an ok way of living for expats in the mainland has become as bad if not worse than what's available in western countries. You would think that FT jobs would *at least* keep up with inflation. China wants western countries to create longterm opportunities for Chinese people in China and in the West. China *talks* about recipricating. In reality, the one profession allowed to expats is mostly getting worse, to the point of being nearly impossible to keep. If family is so important to Chinese, then why is China not just limiting expat opportunities but destroying FT's ability to provide for their family and future?

I'm happy that you're doing ok 7969, really. You're good.
Is it enough to buy a home and raise a family? Save for retirement? For your health or the health of your family? To feed them? To afford the cost of educating them? These things worry me. China is for Chinese. China is looking more and more impossible.

[LarssonCrew]

I don't know about the worries over inflation so much. I'm more worried that my flight home will cost me 10000 not 7000, but a drink in my local noodle place going from 1 to 1.5 isn't a huge deal, my lunch now costs me one yuan more....

To be honest, I still think uni job + privates is the way to go, the way I work is that the more I want to earn, the more hours I put in, sure putting in 30 hours a week is tough for some people, but if you've got 22500 at the end of the month, with a paid house and all bills, that's over $300 to spend...not so bad I think.

IT depends of course, I also have a business so it's not all about purely working, but I see some FT's who put in 12 hours a week....do they not get bored? In the west I used to work that at Christmas in one day. If you want to buy a house back in UK you put in a 40 hour shift, if you do the same here with a uni job, housing etc, you can pull in 25k, save 20k a month and in two years buy a house outright....you need to be comparitive for the two countries, and work it out based n the SAME number of hours you'd parasitically do!

[choudoufu]

market forces at work.

official unemployment rate in the usa is around 10%.
the unofficial (actual) rate is closer to 20%.
i dunno about the other english-speaking countries....

watch the news lately? hundreds of small towns are completely
shutting down their education departments. bankrupt. no money.
half of all homes in the us are underwater. no job, no house, no
money, no hope. but bills, lotsa bills.

i read somewhere that detroit was closing half of its schools.

unemployed teachers. unemployed graduates. all yearning
to come to china, the land of opportunity.....or at least,
a fairly regular paycheck.

until them western countries get their respective houses back in
order, there will always be someone that'll accept that 4K rmb
plus housing for 25 teaching hours.

[idiotfish]