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The Current State of the Ukraine
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wonderingjoesmith wrote:
Dear Sasha,

Working with people, who have been judged as invaders of Ukraine, must be enlightening.

Sashadroogie wrote:
I note, with disdain, an almost total absence of historical or dialectical materialism in the above arguments. No wonder the confusion...
Let in on the topic rather than just assess one's mind! What are the views of average Russians on the current state in Ukraine and how do you compare them to your own take? Is it more acceptable or despicable there?

I hope the recognition of Marx, Engels, Lenin or Putin people will illuminate the debate and perhaps offer the west something to consider.

Regards,
Joe


The great Russian people feel aghast at what is happening in the Ukraine. Both the Ukraine and Belarussia are considered 'brother' countries by the vast majority of the populace here. They simply cannot imagine war between any of them. It would be as close to a civil war as possible without officially being one.

There is also deep suspicion of the continued encirclement of Russian territory by NATO. This is a sure-fire way to provoke the most placid citizen's fear and suspicions of any involvement, diplomatic or otherwise, by anybody else in the region.
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wonderingjoesmith



Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I guess the great Russian people's voices are heard as far as to Geir Lundestad's office where Putin is among Nobel Peace nominees.
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is that more or less ironic than Obama actually being awarded a Peace Prize whilst in the middle of more than one war?
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, admittedly there have been some rather strange awardees: '94 and '78 come to mind. But Obama was, at least, trying to dial down the wars started by his predecessor and improve relations with the Islamic world whereas it's a tad hard to see Putin's recent actions in a "peaceful" light.

Regards,
John
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Johnslat

Yes, it is true that Obama is a big improvement on the previous war-mongering incumbent. But still, he is the C and C of an army that is still involved in a multiplicity of wars - ahem! ... sorry ... police actions around the world.

Putin, is of course, a man of peace, as evinced by his diplomatic skills in dissuading NATO from launching an attack on an already war-torn Syria.

One can only hope his political wisdom will prevail against the forces of destabilisation at work in the Ukraine today.


Best wishes

Sasha
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wonderingjoesmith



Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou

PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There may be a thin line in between the great and evil. The choices people have ought to be looked at before the judgment day. Yanukovich, I'd say, has been missed by a few inches.

Yours faithfully
Joe
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bharrell



Joined: 25 Oct 2008
Posts: 102

PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Both the Ukraine and Belarussia are considered 'brother' countries by the vast majority of the populace here. They simply cannot imagine war between any of them.


I agree. I lived in Kiev for a year and think it is a lovely city. Ukraine felt almost indistinguishable to me from Russia. Everyone can speak Russian and they generally behave and think like Russians, except they are nicer. The culture is nearly the same as is the food.
It was disturbing to see the videos from Maidan as I went there once or twice a week.
I don't think there is any conspiracy of western powers, it's just a divided country. When I was there in 2008-9 I saw more power plays from Russia than from the west, i.e., threats to shut off the gas pipeline. I never thought the Orange revolution would last, as Ukraine doesn't have the strength to escape Russia's gravitational pull. I don't think this iteration will work either. It would be very painful, like twin brothers separating.
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Yanukovich is a thug of the first order:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25182830

and if this is "communism" today, then Marx must be severely disturbed in his grave.

"Within hours of his departure, Ukrainians were able to see for themselves the opulence of his palatial retreat, surrounded by 140 hectares (345 acres) of grounds.

The estate, complete with sauna and private zoo, is a stark contrast with the grinding poverty that afflicts many Ukrainians."

Regards,
John
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wonderingjoesmith



Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou

PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear John,

“A thug of the first order” or the deep gap in between wealth and “grinding poverty” may be found in any place on Earth; the US sadly isn’t an exception. Although there may not be a zoo, in the Bush family one can see the exculpatory evidence of the abuse of power and American taxpayers. What Yanukovich has done or stolen does not nearly compare to the modern American royal family.

The former president of Ukraine would have most likely gotten away with all the wild animals in his large estate, had he looked west more than east. Resources that the west and immigrated Ukrainians have used ignited the unrests, resulted in varieties of broken laws and ultimately forced the man out. Whether corrupt or not, Yanukovich may have been pushed out illegally too. Isn’t it ironic that the new pro-western, also corrupt, Ukrainian government is ruling and claiming that the Crimean authorities are bribed and illegal?


johnslat wrote:
"Within hours of his departure, Ukrainians were able to see for themselves the opulence of his palatial retreat, surrounded by 140 hectares (345 acres) of grounds.
Within hours of his legal agreement with the western powers and Ukrainian opposition, Yanukovich was thrown under the bus. Within hours of his escape, the western money began to flow into the hands that pushed him. A fine example for other non-capitalist nations to follow. Wink

Not Marx, who was historian, journalist, philosopher and revolutionary socialist rather than communist, but many of those that fought Nazis must be greatly bothered in their graves by the current events. Being invaded from the west yet again, some of the grandchildren of Ukraine may have sold themselves just like their grandfathers did.

Sincerely yours,
Joe
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Joe,

And, in like manner, John Wayne Gacy is better than Ted Bundy. Very Happy

Regards,
John
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grahamb



Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Posts: 1945

PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:17 pm    Post subject: John or Ted? Reply with quote

Surely that depends on your gender, John! Wink
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wonderingjoesmith



Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear John,

Putin has the balls and brain to do it right and within the laws unlike your suggestions and the Russian president’s opposition in the capitalist nations.

He is not in Ukraine but he is. The well prepared soldiers that are acting on their own in Crimea are NOT spilling the blood which has been the case in Uncle Sam’s crimes in Iraq or Afghanistan; and, they are NOT flying over or crossing the Crimean territory, which has been Russian before, to bomb Ukrainians into oblivion which Uncle Sam and his EU buddies executed in Libya and former Yugoslavia so well. The unmarked or anonymous soldiers in Crimea, who are to be believed local vigilantes, are perfectly showing the pro-western and radical Ukrainians, UN, NATO and the rest of the world how it is to be done.

He is losing money but he is not. The Russian economy is NOT going to suffer but gain because of Ukraine. The stock market often goes down prior to a conflict although usually re-gains after. JFK, for example, has done it in 1962 in a similar fashion. Never mind Crimea which has practically become Russia already, Kiev has made Moscow look much better than before. Moreover, the financially strapped EU and indebted US economies are about to make mother Russia super strong yet again.

So, not so much for either John Wayne Gacy or Ted Bundy but a Nobel Peace candidate Mr. Putin and/or perhaps his American resident Mr. Snowden who is another front runner for the prize.

Sincerely yours,
Joe
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear wonderingjoesmith'

"Putin has the balls and brain to do it right and within the laws unlike your suggestions and the Russian president’s opposition in the capitalist nations."

Well, I'll give him this: he learned from a master.

1939: Hitler invades Poland to "protect" ethnic Germans in Poland.
2014: Putin invades Ukraine to "protect" ethnic Russians in Ukraine.

"He is not in Ukraine but he is." In what fantasy land is Putin "not in Ukraine?"

"He is losing money but he is not." One fact: that Russia IS losing money - followed by unsupported opinions.

"JFK, for example, has done it in 1962 in a similar fashion."

First, I am sorry to break this to you, but JFK is dead. And if you can't figure out why your remark inspired that "breaking news" report, well, then your mastery of English grammar is as sketchy as your grasp of history.

Would you please specify and document just what JFK did in 1962? Thanks.

I wonder if Putin would agree with this:

“We need to use the United Nations Security Council and believe that preserving law and order in today’s complex and turbulent world is one of the few ways to keep international relations from sliding into chaos. The law is still the law, and we must follow it whether we like it or not. Under current international law, force is permitted only in self-defense or by the decision of the Security Council. Anything else is unacceptable under the United Nations Charter and would constitute an act of aggression.”

I hope so - since he said all that about Syria.

Speaking of money, care to make a wager on Putin's likelihood of winning the Nobel Peace Prize (or Snowden's, either, for that matter)?

Regards,
John
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3701 W.119th



Joined: 26 Feb 2014
Posts: 386
Location: Central China

PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ukrainians can't swim. They attract enemy radar. They attract sharks. They nudge people when they're trying to shoot. They always insist on sitting at 'The Captain's Table'.. They *muck about*. Imagine the fear when you go to sleep with a Ukrainian on board, and think, "Oh God, when I wake up, will everyone be dead?"

You can't run a ship like that.
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear 3701 W.119th

Good heavens - why the heck does Putin want to "annex" them, then? Very Happy

Regards,
John
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