Job Discussion Forums

[Trod76]

I will be in Hong Kong this summer than after that I'm really thinking of Cambodia for work. I checked out a website posted by someone in this forum. I do not know anyone that really had something bad to say about Cambodia. On one side you got Thailand, on the other you got Vietnam. If the owner of that website reads this, you have a great website! It really got me thinking of Cambodia.

[lexpat]

Well guys I just completed three months of well paid teaching work in Cambodia (though pay is usually abysmal there), and I've been reading the posts of enthusiasts on this site with increasing alarm.

Here's what I know (or think I know). First, the negative:

1) More than one DOS told me that they never hire anyone who has come from teaching in Thailand because they never complete the term. They always turn tail and go back to the Land of Smiles. As someone who spent a couple of years teaching in Thailand, all the while making regular visa runs to Phnom Penh, I understand this completely. Due to the large NGO presence in the country prices are much, much higher in Cambodia than elsewhere in Southeast Asia and salaries - for teachers anyway- are almost always the same or less.

2) There is practically no middle class in Cambodia. Unlike Thailand, almost all westerners - teachers, aid workers, etc. - eat western food in western restaurants and hang out almost entirely with their neo-colonialist buddies, not with the locals. For a variety of reasons, foreigners basically live in ghettos: The lake, the Riverside, NGOville.

3) Khmer culture is much harsher than the more Buddhist centered one in neighboring Thailand, and far more insular. There is a lot of violence and the students are quite confrontational. I happen to enjoy that sort of thing from people I'm teaching (the confrontations, I mean, not the violence), but for a beginning teacher it is quite difficult. I know a number of newbies who came to the country because it was the easiest place to get a job and I have to say that I've met very few who didn't find it a frustrating start. If you slip up even a little with the grammar, you'll here about it. Khmer students combine a pedantic attitude with a not particularly strong work ethic. Many SEA long termers will tell you that they are demanding like Viets, but much less industrious, and a little lazy like Thais, but not sweet. I'm not a long termer and I just arrived in Vietnam, but I wouldn't argue too strenuously with either assessment.

Also, I've never heard a Thai student complain about a teacher, even when I suspect the student had good cause. Khmer students will complain to protect themselves, which is not too surprising considering the country's dark history. Like most places in SEA, English is often as much about the certificate at the end of the class as it is about the skill gained. In Cambodia, you want to be very careful when you get between, say, a government sub minister and his certificate.

4) The local English language newspaper often seems to have three sections: News, Sports, and Debauchery. There are many, many pedophiles running around the place (some of them teachers), and though they are starting to get busted, they are still thick on the ground. I'm afraid sex and drugs are still the biggest draw in the country. Seeing all those hefty fifty somethings bouncing the little girls on their knees is creepy and if you're in the country to do more than gawk, you'll get tired of pretending every day is grandad day at the local junior high.

Okay, now the positive:

1) The French left some very nice buildings and the riverwalk is pleasant. Although the city is mostly pretty torn up, you can live down by the river in a certain spendour. Think the British Raj. One of the most popular places is the Foreign Correspondent's Club....great for nostalgists of Empire.

2) You can have a great time with a dirt bike. There's lots of dirt and bikes are not difficult to obtain. Unlike, say, Bangkok, you can get out of the place fast and hit the road. Big fun.

3) Hmm. Can I go back to my negative list? No? OK. Well the sunsets are indeed impressive. Something to do with global warming, deforestation and the rays illuminationg particulate matter maybe, but still very nice.

4) You are free!!! (as long as you can pay). The authorties will renew your visa forever, never bust you for pot, let you do whatever you want with women over fifteen...Wild west of Asia indeed. Plus the presence of the NGO gang in their sleek SUVs means lots of things are available that are difficult to obtain elsewhere in Asia. I mean, I woudn't choose to work somewhere just because you can get Gray Poupon Mustard, but some do.

5) It's a wonderful introduction to the wacky, dysfunctional world of international aid and the dependencies it engenders. Many people are in the country, I fear, because they like to feel superior to others, because a stint amongst some of the poorest people in the world seems to elevate their status. Seeing that dynamic often sends the wise young ESL teacher back to grad school to get a profession that will bring real status back home or abroad. Cambodia opens their eyes and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

[ClaudeRains]

Whoa!

Lexpat's analysis strikes me as informed and balanced. It's also troubling to my Polyana plans. There would seem to be conflicting reports on the cost of living in Cambodia. Who's right? Also, if indeed it's a scene of 50-somethings bouncing teens on their knees, will someone like myself (who's 52) be automatically classified as a "short eyes" as well? If so, it might be difficult to function with the respect a teacher needs.

Khmerhit? Does the defense wish to challenge this new witness?

[Aramas]

[lexpat]

Forgive the typos in my premier post. I had to check out of my hotel by noon earlier today and was a bit rushed. But nothing I wrote was particularly controversial. Realize I'm mostly comparing Thailand (and a little bit Vietnam) with Cambodia. How Khmer students compare to those in Korea and Taiwan I don't know.

But I will add for MOST teachers I know, the biggest issues in Cambodia are really the hours and the pay. Banana, STIC, ETC, ACE (my old school), all the majors usually require split shifts and Saturday classes, which is no longer the case in Thailand, where increasingly jobs are in regular Thai schools. And when I say split, I mean really split: 6am classes are more the rule than the exception in Cambodia (that was a new one for me) and I know many people who are also required to teach classes in the evening on the same day as those 6am deals. Terrible.

Pay, typically, is about $8-10. Even ACE, which I think everyone will agree pays more than anywhere else, starts you at $12 for general English. This is a big deal because the place really is no where near as cheap as Thailand or Vietnam. BTW, many schools have opened recently so it is easier than ever to get a job, but more difficult to get students, which drives competition and keeps wages down. The joke in Cambodia is that everything is 'a dollar,' which may not sound bad but is a whole lot more than what comparable stuff/services cost in other countries in the region that lack a huge NGO presence...If you doubt me check out Lonely Planet or any backpacker chat room.

Actually, a lot of the long term teachers in the region that I know are actually in Cambodia on a kind of r & r from the incredibly hectic but much better paying scene in Vietnam, or looking for a place that is free and easy like Thailand used to be, i.e. they like the no holds barred nightlife, baby. Not too many plan on staying for long.

Khmerhit? I'd love to hear what you think. After getting to know so many teachers out at the lake and at ACE and over at the National Library, I'm wondering where all those contented ESL teachers were hiding! I was always the one saying, hey! It's not so bad!

[khmerhit]

Excellent post Lexpat, particularly with regard to the insolent/lazy/grammar obsessed students. Also, your description of the NGO economy is spot-on, although a bit harsh in the way you generalize about the motives of many individuals. On the whole, I would say you were there long enough to diagnose its ills, but perhaps not sufficiently long to learn how to have a good time and keep your head--a daunting balancing act, as newbies quickly discover.

As for the list of negatives, they are all there, it's true. But it doesn't mean you can't avoid them if you mind your own business. And as for the positives, well, these are all subjective and you have a left a good few of mine out, especially the countryside and the opportunities to meet interesting people with an interesting past. And of course, if vice is your thing, Phnom Penh is the place. I suppose the best thing about it for me was it showed me how things really work out there (and here) --and without the Disney sugar-coating, it is not a pretty sight. But it is REAL, man! Plus, you can have a lot of fun, laugh a lot --mostly black humour-based laffs--and meet some cool people, like Dr Death. He is there, out in the open.

Thailand is for tourists. Cambodia is for grown-ups. Like the man said, most people cannot stand too much reality.

Great post, Lexpat.

all best

kh

[Hector_Lector]

Unfortunately, Garry Glitter is a grown-up.

[johnslat]

Dear Hector_Lector,
Only in the physiological sense of that term.
Regards,
John

[Aramas]

You mean like people that read tabloids or watch tabloid TV - and believe it?

[Legolarse]

I notice someone mentioned ACE. Reports on ACE are mixed. See other parts of this website...

http://www.eslcafe.com/jobinfo/asia/sefer.cgi?display:1011475134-13079.txt

http://www.eslcafe.com/jobinfo/asia/sefer.cgi?display:1030343621-9532.txt

I'm looking for a job in Cam too so I'd be interested in getting to the bottom of this.