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"All Foreign Teacher Should Have Interview This Week...
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Toast



Joined: 08 Jun 2013
Posts: 428

PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 5:04 pm    Post subject: "All Foreign Teacher Should Have Interview This Week... Reply with quote

...with the leaders of the language department, DOS' and Foreign Affairs Officers to explain why they should have their contract renewed for the next term. Interview at 1.30pm on Tuesday. Thank you for your comming!"

...Text message received today.

That's a new one.

The Dean goes off to study English in Montreal for 6 months and suddenly confuses the local vo-tech for the Harvards.

Irrelevant for me as I'll be moving on, but whatever naughty boy has been giving the students English names like Willy Wonka, Genuis, Fungus and Beatlemania might be in a world of Chinese public W.C plops.
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Bud Powell



Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 1736

PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 5:33 pm    Post subject: Re: "All Foreign Teacher Should Have Interview This Wee Reply with quote

Toast wrote:
...with the leaders of the language department, DOS' and Foreign Affairs Officers to explain why they should have their contract renewed for the next term. Interview at 1.30pm on Tuesday. Thank you for your comming!"



I'd turn the tables on them and make the FAO tell me why I should renew.
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Shroob



Joined: 02 Aug 2010
Posts: 1339

PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sit. Stay. Beg. Beg for your job. There's a good teacher.
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SledgeCleaver



Joined: 02 Mar 2013
Posts: 126

PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I s'pose the Chinese were bound to eventually pick up some of the cold-blooded HR tactics which have been "perfected" in the USA and UK.

In my opinion, processes like these exist less for the actual information they provide and more because fear is a very good motivator. If the teacher feels that he or she is being watched, then he or she will watch him- or herself, panopticon-style.

This idea can be linked to two different management styles, which if my my old business school classes are not failing me, are called A-style and B-style.

A-style basically states that humans only do things out of fear of authority, and that left to their own devices they will do nothing or at least perform very poorly, so you should attempt to motivate your employees with fear and control. B-style basically states that humans are naturally productive and creative, so you should attempt to unleash your employees' natural upswing towards productivity and creativity. For example, if you raise morale and give your employees tools to produce great things, they will produce great things, because they feel empowered to do so.

Naturally, these two styles are more or less productive in different environments. In a drudge job like fast food or something, it's pretty clear that you can't really "unleash creativity" so you have to rule through fear. That is also part of the reason businesses like a low minimum wage. It's not just because it's less money going out the door: it also keeps people scared for their livelihood, thus they work harder and can be terrorized more effectively. On the other hand, we've probably all read about the tech and marketing fields where the offices are basically big playgrounds. For example, at Google you can go get massages or play ping pong in the middle of the day, or at some of the most prestigious ad agencies, the office is equipped with a basketball court, board game tables, frickin pogo sticks to jump around on.

The thing about education is it's one of those fields where there's a lot of debate about what is really better. Lots of managers go for the "controlling" style, and think that teachers are motivated through fear. The American system has definitely morphed in this direction, with all the testing and "accountability," the union-busting, and so on, though of course there are good principals and so on who understand that teaching is an art and that it requires creativity. As opposed to the direction American public schools are taking, most of the best private and international schools go for a "B-style" approach, where they provide excellent facilities and materials, highly-trained people, and let people loose. High morale among teachers translates to better confidence among students, more innovation, and so on.

This, in turn, reminds me of a video I watched by a woman who was once the head of the Black Panthers, where she talked about schools and the achievement gap. She compared all the systems of "accountability," high-stakes testing, and the "cram-style" nature of many schools that attempt to give poor, black, or Latino students a chance to achieve, to private schools like Phillips Exeter. Phillips Exeter (perhaps America's most famous private school) apparently doesn't have grades. Kids don't have to stay after classes for extra study sessions or whatever else, they go do sports and extracurriculars, whereas in these academies for inner-city kids, the kids have to go to cram sessions, much of the learning is rote, and so on. This kind of thing might get kids into college, but it's pretty soul-destroying and actually not a deep education. Of course, she links all of this to institutional racism; the teachers and administrators at these "inner-city cram schools" (many of whom are white and middle-class) would never send their own kids to such a school. I have to say, she's probably right on that score. It was a pretty interesting video.
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Big Worm



Joined: 02 Jan 2011
Posts: 171

PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Print out a copy of the text. Proofread/edit/fix mistakes in the text with big red marker.

Tell them you are not happy with the tone of communication that has recently occurred.

Ask them to explain why you should stay working for them instead of moving on to one of the thousands of jobs you could have with literally an email and a phone call.

Ask for a little something extra in your next contract.

Gotta keep this type of ish in check.
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The_Kong



Joined: 15 Apr 2014
Posts: 349

PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Worm wrote:
Print out a copy of the text. Proofread/edit/fix mistakes in the text with big red marker.

Tell them you are not happy with the tone of communication that has recently occurred.

Ask them to explain why you should stay working for them instead of moving on to one of the thousands of jobs you could have with literally an email and a phone call.

Ask for a little something extra in your next contract.

Gotta keep this type of ish in check.


That's a great way to talk yourself out of a job.

If you're at a school you like, and you want to come back, why is it unreasonable to have to explain why they should renew your contract?

Because...It would eat up precious minutes of your time? You don't have a good case for why they should hire you back because you suck? Your such a master teacher that you shouldn't have to stoop down to their level and communicate with the people who are paying you?

If you're at a school you don't like, and don't want to come back, then it's not really an issue at all, is it?

I agree that the wording could use a little polishing but anyone who is half-decent at teaching ESL should know that often times ESL learners often come off as a lot more blunt than native speakers for a multitude of reasons.

It's simply amazing how many times I see people offer suggestions on this board that would result in me not hiring, not re-hiring or even firing someone if they heeded such advice.

Use your common sense. If you want to come back, tell them why you think you're a good candidate to return. If they agree, then there should be no problem asking for a raise when you re-sign. While your having the meeting, you can also politely bring up that the text message sounded a bit odd, and offer suggestions for how to fix it. Is that really too much to ask?
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teenoso



Joined: 18 Sep 2013
Posts: 365
Location: south china

PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like the FAO and language department are incompetent... they don't know who they want back ? Have they never assessed you in class , or given their teachers feedback from the students?

Or perhaps there is simpler explanation - they are cutting back and can't re-hire all the teachers who may want to stay.
Either way , I side with those who think this kind of management sucks. Nobody should have to persuade their boss to keep them on. I think you made the right decision to move on anyway.
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roadwalker



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 1750
Location: Ch

PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know I couldn't resist feeling insulted by that message, especially if there were any other issues weighing down my enthusiasm for the school. But if it was a matter of poor wording by a non-native English speaker, it wouldn't be the first time in my life. I wonder how often I've used Chinese in such a way that would have been very rude coming from a native speaker? Probably more than once. I think it's better to wait for a face to face before feeling insulted. OP is moving on anyway, so no big deal. If it's because of management problems at the school, then, yes, this would feel like the icing on the cake. But in most situations, take a breath first.
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likwid_777



Joined: 04 Nov 2012
Posts: 411
Location: NA

PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lol @ the names of the students. Some guy at our school had named a kid "Beer" prior to my arriving there. Jeez. I also recall how the Chinese staff somehow managed to cultivate this culture of fear among the FT staff, which often manifested in an environment where one felt that he or she couldn't trust anyone. It was horrible. To those who can pull off the "Why should I stay?" manoeuvre, hats off to your cowboy style. My subordinate, peasant mind would never have even thought of such a move. Perhaps a good move would be to say your piece first, and then once they're nodding, drop the Wild West tactic. This would be perhaps a smoother transition to smack down than up front opposition.
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NoBillyNO



Joined: 11 Jun 2012
Posts: 1762

PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
To those who can pull off the "Why should I stay?"


There is a fulcrum point in any negotiation .. silence at moments of crucial negotiations can be your advantage point, where as you don't need to say anything to indicate your "mullin" it over and is often perceived as having other options....if this doesn't push negotiations along then a well place non-obligatory musing as to wondering what is the best location for you to further your career...

Geo-dissatisfaction....such as a station in Beijing can be attributed to air quality and the amount of FT's leaving due to poor air quality ....

COLA...Cost of living allowance ..... illustrations as to why it is more costly this year say as opposed to lst year.....
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LPKSA



Joined: 02 Mar 2014
Posts: 211

PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would text back and say something like "please wait one more day for reply response. Job employment is fine, but greater if more time allotted for decision. Must give more time for me to think over about what I can/will/might say. Need more time. Please wait another one more day. Thanks you for your unnderstanding."

Also ask them why the Dean went to a French-speaking area of Canada to study English.
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Big Worm



Joined: 02 Jan 2011
Posts: 171

PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Kong wrote:

That's a great way to talk yourself out of a job.

If you're at a school you like, and you want to come back, why is it unreasonable to have to explain why they should renew your contract?

Because...It would eat up precious minutes of your time? You don't have a good case for why they should hire you back because you suck? Your such a master teacher that you shouldn't have to stoop down to their level and communicate with the people who are paying you?

If you're at a school you don't like, and don't want to come back, then it's not really an issue at all, is it?

I agree that the wording could use a little polishing but anyone who is half-decent at teaching ESL should know that often times ESL learners often come off as a lot more blunt than native speakers for a multitude of reasons.

It's simply amazing how many times I see people offer suggestions on this board that would result in me not hiring, not re-hiring or even firing someone if they heeded such advice.

Use your common sense. If you want to come back, tell them why you think you're a good candidate to return. If they agree, then there should be no problem asking for a raise when you re-sign. While your having the meeting, you can also politely bring up that the text message sounded a bit odd, and offer suggestions for how to fix it. Is that really too much to ask?


It's unreasonable to have to explain why I should be rehired because I have been there working there every day for a year. Because I have proven that I am an asset, that I know what I am doing and that I am a good teacher. After a year, if you don't know this....what are you doing?

I have been teaching overseas for over ten years now. I do in fact also hold a department head/supervisory position. I would never imagine asking my staff to make their case for being rehired. Why? Because I do my job as an administrator. I observe classes. I ask for unit and lesson plans. I check student assessment. I talk to students and teachers to make sure all is well. I work with my staff to make sure they know what is required from them, and give them the help they need to be successful. I know full well way ahead of contract time who should be rehired and who was a mistake to hire in the first place. I do make cuts every year. I don't make them sing and dance for contracts.

The only time I would ask a teacher to defend his employment is if I had repeatedly warned him about something (like coming in too ripped from the night before), and I was contemplating termination.

This type of "management style" is employed by people who either don't know/care what they are doing or have just not been doing their jobs all year. Really? They don't know anything about their staff? Management fail.

Alternately, they are just trying to intimidate people Office Space style to feed their egos. "So...tell me what exactly it is you "DO" here. I'm the only hope you have of trying to save your job." Unless you are working for a really good organization in a position that you are actually not yet qualified for, I'd never recommend taking a meeting like this. It establishes that you need them way more than they need you...which is not the case in most (all?) overseas language schools.

Either way, don't take the meeting because you don't want to work in an unhealthy environment like that.

If you guys are serious about any of this, I'd recommend reading some books on educational leadership.
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NoBillyNO



Joined: 11 Jun 2012
Posts: 1762

PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It's unreasonable to have to explain why I should be rehired because I have been there working there every day for a year. Because I have proven that I am an asset, that I know what I am doing and that I am a good teacher. After a year, if you don't know this....what are you doing?

I have been teaching overseas for over ten years now. I do in fact also hold a department head/supervisory position. I would never imagine asking my staff to make their case for being rehired.


Many uni's from overseas will reassess employees and a common question is why should your contract be extended....as most of the workers here are on a one year contract... this is not an uncommon part of an interview.

Quote:
Alternately, they are just trying to intimidate people Office Space style to feed their egos.


While this could be the case, they could also be interested in the employee's viewpoint of self worth to the org.

Quote:
I'm the only hope you have of trying to save your job."


I don't recall that being in the "Toast" message and I'm not sure that is implied....however in some cases, this could be true and the admin boss is trying to save your job but it is unlikely he would actually put this into words....

If you want the job take the meeting and if you don't want the job .. take the meeting and have fun....
Quote:


This, in turn, reminds me of a video I watched by a woman who was once the head of the Black Panthers, where she talked about schools and the achievement gap. She compared all the systems of "accountability," high-stakes testing, and the "cram-style" nature of many schools that attempt to give poor, black, or Latino students a chance to achieve, to private schools like Phillips Exeter.


Anything presented by the B.P.'s was and still is discounted in that fraudulent charity work funds presented as the "Breakfast Program" which was diverted to the purchase of Weapons and the fashion styling of Eldridge Cleaver and his Eldridge "Cock of the Walk" deParis Pants.

http://uproxx.com/webculture/2013/08/meet-eldridge-cleaver-1968-presidential-candidate-and-*beep*-pants-inventor/


Quote:
That is also part of the reason businesses like a low minimum wage. It's not just because it's less money going out the door: it also keeps people scared for their livelihood, thus they work harder and can be terrorized more effectively.


Looks like a higher wage would be what most employees don't want to lose but a min wage job, say a Mc Minimum Job would be easier to leave due to the abundance of low wage jobs and the high turnover of these jobs.
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choudoufu



Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC

PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i bet it's this:

NoBillyNO wrote:
Many uni's from overseas will reassess employees and a common question is why should your contract be extended....as most of the workers here are on a one year contract... this is not an uncommon part of an interview.


WannaBeKrusty wrote:
The Dean goes off to study English in Montreal for 6 months and suddenly....



give 'em points for trying new things! they learned this great western
management technique to make their western employees feel more
comfortabler. maybe.
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The_Kong



Joined: 15 Apr 2014
Posts: 349

PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Worm wrote:
The_Kong wrote:

That's a great way to talk yourself out of a job.

If you're at a school you like, and you want to come back, why is it unreasonable to have to explain why they should renew your contract?

Because...It would eat up precious minutes of your time? You don't have a good case for why they should hire you back because you suck? Your such a master teacher that you shouldn't have to stoop down to their level and communicate with the people who are paying you?

If you're at a school you don't like, and don't want to come back, then it's not really an issue at all, is it?

I agree that the wording could use a little polishing but anyone who is half-decent at teaching ESL should know that often times ESL learners often come off as a lot more blunt than native speakers for a multitude of reasons.

It's simply amazing how many times I see people offer suggestions on this board that would result in me not hiring, not re-hiring or even firing someone if they heeded such advice.

Use your common sense. If you want to come back, tell them why you think you're a good candidate to return. If they agree, then there should be no problem asking for a raise when you re-sign. While your having the meeting, you can also politely bring up that the text message sounded a bit odd, and offer suggestions for how to fix it. Is that really too much to ask?


It's unreasonable to have to explain why I should be rehired because I have been there working there every day for a year. Because I have proven that I am an asset, that I know what I am doing and that I am a good teacher. After a year, if you don't know this....what are you doing?

I have been teaching overseas for over ten years now. I do in fact also hold a department head/supervisory position. I would never imagine asking my staff to make their case for being rehired. Why? Because I do my job as an administrator. I observe classes. I ask for unit and lesson plans. I check student assessment. I talk to students and teachers to make sure all is well. I work with my staff to make sure they know what is required from them, and give them the help they need to be successful. I know full well way ahead of contract time who should be rehired and who was a mistake to hire in the first place. I do make cuts every year. I don't make them sing and dance for contracts.

The only time I would ask a teacher to defend his employment is if I had repeatedly warned him about something (like coming in too ripped from the night before), and I was contemplating termination.

This type of "management style" is employed by people who either don't know/care what they are doing or have just not been doing their jobs all year. Really? They don't know anything about their staff? Management fail.

Alternately, they are just trying to intimidate people Office Space style to feed their egos. "So...tell me what exactly it is you "DO" here. I'm the only hope you have of trying to save your job." Unless you are working for a really good organization in a position that you are actually not yet qualified for, I'd never recommend taking a meeting like this. It establishes that you need them way more than they need you...which is not the case in most (all?) overseas language schools.

Either way, don't take the meeting because you don't want to work in an unhealthy environment like that.

If you guys are serious about any of this, I'd recommend reading some books on educational leadership.


Not all administrators take such a hands on approach, and as pointed out above by NoBillyNo asking someone this question is not uncommon.

In all honesty, if your boss were to ask you such a questions would you really cop an attitude and answer with "It's unreasonable to have to explain why I should be rehired because I have been working here every day for a year. I have proven that I am an asset, that I know what I am doing and that I am a good teacher. After a year, if you don't know this....what are you doing?"

Or would you just answer the question like a reasonable person and be done with it?

Whether or not you agree with their decision to ask such a question is pretty much irrelevant. So far we've had posters suggest (some sarcastically I hope) to:

1) turn the tables on them and make the FAO tell me why I should renew
2) a comment implying that if your boss asks you a question and you answer then your the equivalent of a dog
3) proof reading the text with a big red marker and tell them your not happy with the tone of communication, followed by a rip-off of suggestion number 1, followed by a comment that suggests that your boss asking you this type of question is inappropriate.
4) a comment suggesting anyone who asks this question is incompetent
5) send back a sarcastic message and then question why the dean traveled to Montreal (a city that has a ton of people who only speak English living there just fine, seriously it feels like half the city doesn't speak French sometimes)

But I wonder how many would actually do this as opposed to just answering the simple question.

Apparently, the appropriate reaction in some eyes is to insult your boss, correct their English, and tell them you shouldn't have to explain yourself. Yeah...good luck with that attitude. Wink

I stand by my original statement that if you don't want to come back anyways, then you don't have to worry about it. If you want to come back, tell them why you think you're a good candidate to return. The whole meeting would probably take less than 10 minutes of your precious time.

If they agree, then there should be no problem asking for a raise when you re-sign, especially since you've made a strong enough case for why you should be re-hired. While your having the meeting, you can also politely bring up that the "tone" of text message put you off and then offer suggestions on how to fix it.
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