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hieroglyphs
Joined: 27 Aug 2011
Posts: 16
Location: Seoul Korea
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 Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:15 am Post subject: Reflections on teaching in Saudi Arabia |
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I did a stint at a university in KSA, and here are some of my thoughts on the experience:
1. When someone says that "this is one of the good places to work", that should be taken with a major grain of salt. That may mean this: "You will always get paid on time, and won't get screwed around". I taught at one of those "good places to work", and found that it didn't really offer much more than that. From a teaching point of view, 90% of the things that I know about this job became utterly useless the minute I started working there. I was given books to follow page by page, and was told exactly what to do by an "academic coordinator" who knew no more about teaching a language than anybody off the street would know, and even less about teaching EAP (and I know there are a number of teachers there who would agree with that). For me, it meant an increase in salary, but a major step down in terms of teaching, so if you have an interest in the latter, do some investigating.
2. If you go to KSA and hate it, you have nobody to blame but yourself. The things that you hate about the country should have been apparent to you before you left. You should not have to go to KSA to figure out that this is a very conservative country, or that your entertainment options will be limited. Personally, I found the place kind of interesting, in its own weird way, and even consider myself lucky to have had the opportunity to spend time in a country that is quite unique in the world. And please, no one respond with any sarcastic remarks ("Yeah, it's unique, alright!"), because that's probably been written before on this site, and doesn't need repeating.
3. I met a lot of nice people (coworkers and others). And the Saudis that I met were often quite gracious people. The only problem that I had was, when walking around with my wife, we sometimes had to deal with idiots driving by in cars and shouting things at us (translated into English, I think I can assume that they were not saying "Welcome To Saudi Arabia").
Anyway, that's what I thought. |
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The Fifth Column
Joined: 11 Jun 2014
Posts: 331
Location: His habitude with lexical items protrudes not unlike a damaged pollex!!!
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:58 am Post subject: |
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What a level-headed post! A kinda "Lesson Learned" comment.
Nice!  |
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SheikMilkShake
Joined: 02 Jul 2014
Posts: 84
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| sometimes, I have started to believe that these young Saudis are smarter than us expat teachers with BA, CeLTA, MA, Ph.D. They know they would get assisted and trained on the job. If they landed a government job, supports are endless financially and others. In Private jobs, they do not have to care as only expats work under them. There is really no point for them to learn anything ( some programs) which are not really important and useful in the future work place . Typing, data entry, real hands-on jobs are done by expats, and they are placed at point positions to sign and approve the procedure. At government jobs, their citizens and also expats must prepare and apply everything on line, once someone from a government office said that " bring a flash stick with all your documents" and when he saw the scanned copy of the documents on the flash, he said " no, save the word document, so that I can copy and paste on the main document". when asked how about the whole scanned document which had all the details, he said " no need, I just want to copy & paste what's important". I think they work smart and most of the time for them, details are not needed. we just make a point in everything and probably it is cultural difference. |
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Hatcher
Joined: 20 Mar 2008
Posts: 602
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:10 am Post subject: |
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I would agree. Saudis need wasta much more than English. The need for ESL is for entertainment and travel. Very few saudis need English for work.
I think "teaching English in the KSA" is pretentious. The instructor forces is down their throats. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 5:27 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| When someone says that "this is one of the good places to work", that should be taken with a major grain of salt. That may mean this: "You will always get paid on time, and won't get screwed around". I taught at one of those "good places to work", and found that it didn't really offer much more than that. From a teaching point of view, 90% of the things that I know about this job became utterly useless the minute I started working there. I was given books to follow page by page, and was told exactly what to do by an "academic coordinator" who knew no more about teaching a language than anybody off the street would know, and even less about teaching EAP (and I know there are a number of teachers there who would agree with that). For me, it meant an increase in salary, but a major step down in terms of teaching, so if you have an interest in the latter, do some investigating. |
However, instead of assuming what others mean, it's best to get a clear reason why, as in: "This is one of the good places to work because ___ (fill in the blank)___." Obviously, the majority of posters on this forum say they head to the Kingdom for its financial incentives. For others like myself, there are non-monetary reasons for working and living in KSA. But throughout this forum, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone touting a particular Saudi university (or any university, for that matter) offers amazing opportunities to grow professionally as a teacher---so much so that it's worth coming to the Kingdom for. Anyway, those are unrealistic expectations given that the region is known for the ineffective, archaic way students have been taught since childhood. |
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plumpy nut
Joined: 12 Mar 2011
Posts: 1652
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
| For others like myself, there are non-monetary reasons for working and living in KSA. |
Good God  Does that really exist? |
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hieroglyphs
Joined: 27 Aug 2011
Posts: 16
Location: Seoul Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:55 am Post subject: |
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[quote="nomad soul"]
| Quote: |
| When someone says that "this is one of the good places to work", that should be taken with a major grain of salt. That may mean this: "You will always get paid on time, and won't get screwed around". I taught at one of those "good places to work", and found that it didn't really offer much more than that. From a teaching point of view, 90% of the things that I know about this job became utterly useless the minute I started working there. I was given books to follow page by page, and was told exactly what to do by an "academic coordinator" who knew no more about teaching a language than anybody off the street would know, and even less about teaching EAP (and I know there are a number of teachers there who would agree with that). For me, it meant an increase in salary, but a major step down in terms of teaching, so if you have an interest in the latter, do some investigating. |
However, instead of assuming what others mean, it's best to get a clear reason why, as in: "This is one of the good places to work because ___ (fill in the blank)___." Obviously, the majority of posters on this forum say they head to the Kingdom for its financial incentives. For others like myself, there are non-monetary reasons for working and living in KSA. But throughout this forum,
| Quote: |
| you'd be hard pressed to find anyone touting a particular Saudi university (or any university, for that matter) offers amazing opportunities to grow professionally as a teacher---so much so that it's worth coming to the Kingdom for. Anyway, those are unrealistic expectations given that the region is known for the ineffective, archaic way students have been taught since childhood. |
I can say from experience that there are universities that offer opportunities for professional development, perhaps just not in KSA. And you are obviously implying that the problems that I describe in the realm of teaching were the fault of the Saudis, but to be fair, I don't think they were. The things that made that a dead-end job came from decisions made by native speakers.They did not reflect an archaic view of teaching so much as no particular view at all. |
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The Fifth Column
Joined: 11 Jun 2014
Posts: 331
Location: His habitude with lexical items protrudes not unlike a damaged pollex!!!
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| plumpy nut wrote: |
| nomad soul wrote: |
| For others like myself, there are non-monetary reasons for working and living in KSA. |
Good God Does that really exist? |
Joan of Arc comes to mind...in fact, I think that I know of people who would prefer burning at the stake rather than go to Saudi for "non-monetary reasons"  |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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| hieroglyphs wrote: |
| I can say from experience that there are universities that offer opportunities for professional development, perhaps just not in KSA. And you are obviously implying that the problems that I describe in the realm of teaching were the fault of the Saudis, but to be fair, I don't think they were. The things that made that a dead-end job came from decisions made by native speakers.They did not reflect an archaic view of teaching so much as no particular view at all. |
I deliberately removed your username when quoting your comments because my response was intended to address the issue in general and not specifically to you and your particular teaching experience. In no way am I implicating the Saudis as the cause of an expat's dissatisfaction with their work/life experience since we're all responsible for our own decisions. That's evident in my many posts throughout this forum. My point was that when someone states an object, job, person, place, etc., is good or bad, they should also give the reasons why. Moreover, others should be asking why and not taking general statements as is or worse, trying to fill in the blanks with one's own assumptions (e.g., "That may mean..."). Seriously, if someone claims Bubba's Rib Shack is a lousy restaurant, or that Cleveland, Ohio, is a great city for a vacation, we certainly want details as to why. The same should go for making an important decision such as taking a job abroad. Trust, but verify.
That said, I obviously have no knowledge of the specific decisions made by native English speakers or the Saudi administrators at anyone's job, including yours. However, that doesn't negate the fact the region still embodies an old skool mentality. (There are several recent threads about this issue and changes being considered to address the problems in both the Saudi and Emirati educational systems.) |
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hieroglyphs
Joined: 27 Aug 2011
Posts: 16
Location: Seoul Korea
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:46 am Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
| hieroglyphs wrote: |
| I can say from experience that there are universities that offer opportunities for professional development, perhaps just not in KSA. And you are obviously implying that the problems that I describe in the realm of teaching were the fault of the Saudis, but to be fair, I don't think they were. The things that made that a dead-end job came from decisions made by native speakers.They did not reflect an archaic view of teaching so much as no particular view at all. |
I deliberately removed your username when quoting your comments because my response was intended to address the issue in general and not specifically to you and your particular teaching experience. In no way am I implicating the Saudis as the cause of an expat's dissatisfaction with their work/life experience since we're all responsible for our own decisions. That's evident in my many posts throughout this forum. My point was that when someone states an object, job, person, place, etc., is good or bad, they should also give the reasons why. Moreover, others should be asking why and not taking general statements as is or worse, trying to fill in the blanks with one's own assumptions (e.g., "That may mean..."). Seriously, if someone claims Bubba's Rib Shack is a lousy restaurant, or that Cleveland, Ohio, is a great city for a vacation, we certainly want details as to why. The same should go for making an important decision such as taking a job abroad. Trust, but verify.
That said, I obviously have no knowledge of the specific decisions made by native English speakers or the Saudi administrators at anyone's job, including yours. However, that doesn't negate the fact the region still embodies an old skool mentality. (There are several recent threads about this issue and changes being considered to address the problems in both the Saudi and Emirati educational systems.) |
I suppose your point about asking "why" gets to the gist of what I wanted to tell people who are thinking about going there. And I would be the first to admit that I did not ask enough questions before doing so. Your first comments about Saudi education did give me the impression that you were implicating them, but I accept that that was not what you meant. I just felt the need to say something because, in the midst of all the negativity regarding Saudis that appears on this site, it was worth pointing out that my dissatisfaction with the job was not their fault. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| The Fifth Column wrote: |
| plumpy nut wrote: |
| nomad soul wrote: |
| For others like myself, there are non-monetary reasons for working and living in KSA. |
Good God Does that really exist? |
Joan of Arc comes to mind...in fact, I think that I know of people who would prefer burning at the stake rather than go to Saudi for "non-monetary reasons" |
Well, my reason for heading to the Kingdom certainly wasn't for professional development. 
But really, there's no life rule that states we all have to march to the same drum beat. Just because others have different reasons for doing something doesn't always mean their interests or motivations are wrong or cuckoo. Different strokes for different folks. |
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Hatcher
Joined: 20 Mar 2008
Posts: 602
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:38 am Post subject: |
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When I was there, every person I met and worked with was there for either M or 3M = Money or Mecca, Madina and Money.
there may be some professional development but not much and those looking for it were few and far between.
by far, the most difficult place I have ever worked. |
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The Fifth Column
Joined: 11 Jun 2014
Posts: 331
Location: His habitude with lexical items protrudes not unlike a damaged pollex!!!
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:39 am Post subject: |
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The ONLY people that I EVER met there were for "professional development" were, sadly, contract doctors who were honing their skills as trauma surgeons...
At that, they had plenty of practice... |
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SheikMilkShake
Joined: 02 Jul 2014
Posts: 84
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:05 am Post subject: |
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| regarding teaching in KSA, I think women fare much better. Within a month or 2, I saw changes in them, from Plane Janes to classy madams with monthly change of hair colors, Arabic style eyebrows and make up, smooth body and face by all laser hair removal and procedures, acrylic nails, sexy abayas, and they get invited and popular at compound parties, desert trips, embassy parties, at fancy restaurants, oh you name it, on weekends, and they would come back to work with full of energy, fresh and do well at work. when one is happy, they are radiant and the vibes are felt by students and then rapport happens. But for men, oh what a boring story.. all shisha cafes are out of reach now, entering a mall alone seems like a nightmare, Saudi colleagues ( my age group) are conservative or they do not let their private entertainment become a public affair, sid makes you sick for days, our country girls prefer Arabic and high end men to party with, so I would go to work with a heavy heart and plenty of dissatisfaction, and work becomes unbearable. Everything is negative except pay day.. |
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hieroglyphs
Joined: 27 Aug 2011
Posts: 16
Location: Seoul Korea
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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| SheikMilkShake wrote: |
| regarding teaching in KSA, I think women fare much better. Within a month or 2, I saw changes in them, from Plane Janes to classy madams with monthly change of hair colors, Arabic style eyebrows and make up, smooth body and face by all laser hair removal and procedures, acrylic nails, sexy abayas, and they get invited and popular at compound parties, desert trips, embassy parties, at fancy restaurants, oh you name it, on weekends, and they would come back to work with full of energy, fresh and do well at work. when one is happy, they are radiant and the vibes are felt by students and then rapport happens. But for men, oh what a boring story.. all shisha cafes are out of reach now, entering a mall alone seems like a nightmare, Saudi colleagues ( my age group) are conservative or they do not let their private entertainment become a public affair, sid makes you sick for days, our country girls prefer Arabic and high end men to party with, so I would go to work with a heavy heart and plenty of dissatisfaction, and work becomes unbearable. Everything is negative except pay day.. |
My wife has the opposite opinion (i.e. that it is easier for men), which really just demonstrates that the place is what you make of it. I met people there who seem to have adjusted quite well.
Getting back to the point about professional development, though, I got the impression that there are jobs in KSA that can be a major career killer. Years of experience following poorly-thought-out decisions to the letter, and no experience in any kind of independent thinking, will not likely get you anything but more of the same, when you do decide to leave (or want to leave). My experience there is very limited, but I would suggest to people that, before leaving for KSA, they have an escape plan ready. |
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