Job Discussion Forums

[aaaronr]

Hello, all.

I've been offered a job in Vietnam. The offer letter states my pay, annual leave days (paid? unpaid?), little information on the housing that will be provided or about health insurance.

Also, there is 2 month probation period, but nothing about what is satisfactory performance.

There is no information about what happens if either party breaks the contract.

In the interview I was offered between 1800-2000/mo. I was offered 1900. I was told housing will be provided, but I have to pay the utilities. There is a basic health insurance plan.

Teaching hours are max. 25. Total hours 40. This is a university position.

My qualifications: MA ESL, CELTA, two years teaching adults. The pay is comparable to what I make in the U.S. at a community college. It's a little higher, but I work less hours on site.

Thanks for your advice.

Aaron in Arizona

[Okie from Muskogee]

[ExpatLuke]

Staying on campus for the entire work day is not uncommon in Vietnam, and at least it's paid in your case.

[Okie from Muskogee]

[Dave_1]

[skarper]

Very interesting comment above - and clearly heartfelt advice.

Just one observation of my own - if you have a thug DoS how much protection would a contract provide you? Serious question I'm not being funny. Have you managed to rein in a out of control DoS by pointing at your contract clause of not more than one observation a year unless blah blah blah...?

It seems to me that if they are bullies they will bully - it is in their nature - and rules/laws/contracts will not stop them.

I have encountered one minor bully working at management level here one in Korea and more than one while in the UK [including one utterly monstrous woman manager in a FE college - though the others were 2 men and one woman - she was by far the worst and it is worse coming from a woman since if we stand our ground we look bad not courageous].

It is IMO the nature of the weak and insecure teachers who rise to DoS or equiv level to try to get what they want by force, hectoring, tantrums and so on rather than by actual leadership.

I don't have a solution beside getting the heck out of their tiny little empire. A lose lose solution all too often but better than the slow death by bad management we face otherwise.

[Dave_1]

[toiyeuthitmeo]

Hmm. One observation per year. Some schools and individual DoS's in my experience actually conduct observations constructively in a way that is a positive experience that supports professional development, rather than a "police surveillance" of the teachers. A thoughtful, professionally done observation, with well-targeted praise and follow-up advice, can be an invaluable tool. For a brand new, fresh off the CELTA, or first time teacher, one observation per year (assuming observations are done well) is probably low. Furthermore, assuming you have a well-qualified DoS, it seems pretty odd that one wouldn't want to engage the benefit of their experience. Oversight and quality control is standard in every industry. If you are a decent teacher, why would observations concern you so much?

I agree about soliciting comments from students. Student comments should be presented voluntarily or in a formal class survey system. Often when staff goes poking around, students start to think that there must be a problem, and it can make a mess of a perfectly good situation.

I would note that many schools in VN like VUS, RMIT, ILA, and I have heard, BC, have "boilerplate" contracts. They may vary by pay and work details according to your position and experience, but they will never modify the terms of the based upon an applicant's demands. E.g. you'll never get them to change things like their observation policies.

[ExpatLuke]

I agree with toiyeuthitmeo. Constructive observations are essential for any professional teacher who doesn't want to get stuck in rut with their teaching. I'm sure some schools use them as an excuse to cut pay, but if you're In a professional envoronment that won't happen and they will be beneficial to you as a teacher, no matter how experienced you are.

[skarper]

While I suspect Dave1 is positing in reaction to a specific situation where some DoS has gotten out of control the only real option a teacher has in that situation is to leave asap - before the contract is up if need be.

[Dave_1]

I think some franchises in VN want overseas hires as they have you by the private part..they can change what they like once you arrive. Also, they will make an educated guess you need their income and have planned on it. So, they have leverage. I have worked for quite a few places and it informs some of my specific recommendations above. Some schools want broke tefl grads. They have no reply if broke. Luckily I had very healthy savings so went fists up (metaphorically) quite quickly in response to lies. I agree 1 to 2 observations a year arguable.. if stated in contract as well as clauses that make approaches to classes outwith survey illegal so if it comes to arbitration you have them.

The constant search/ads for teachers by franchises gives a clue. They haven't the ability to run cyclical recruitment as a significant % walk early and it's not all cause Teflers are so bad. The best employers don't advertise often. You will know who they are and are not from job ads.

Do not accept overseas deal..come with 5000-7000usd USD and a return ticket. VN is still cheap and you will not need them if they are unreasonable.

clue for worst..night sky but there is another which needs a mention. Only threats worked but some of us don't need conflict so walk away

[skarper]

"Do not accept overseas deal..come with 5000-7000usd USD and a return ticket."

This is or should be basic to a successful sojourn anywhere. The beauty of Vietnam for me over a place like Korea [whence I came] is that you are not tied down to any particular employer and their housing deal/visa sponsorship. If there is a problem you can walk out in the middle of class if need be.

If you need money fast I advise people to try Korea and do their homework before accepting a contract. You save more faster there but the burn out rate is higher.

[Dave_1]

[skarper]

I agree - it is suspicious when the same employer is advertising all the time and only has a few jobs - but some of the bigger places maybe have 100 teachers working there - if you count all there branches so they might have a good reason to be running constant ads.

Vietnam is not really for the beginning teacher IMO - that is who many of these employers want but such teachers are not what the students want to be teaching them and they are not the teachers who adapt well to life here.

Older people in there 30-40s are the ideal material - preferably with some other work experience but also some solid EFL background and quals.

Vietnamese students are not easy to teach and you need to be sure of yourself to get positive results. That and the employer issues it helps to be older, able to be assertive without emotional outbursts and command the respect that only comes with age (and a willy) in Asia.

The schools looove to get their paws on a young, hot, white, blonde woman because they are great for PR and they think (wrongly more often than not) that they will be easy to push around.

[Dave_1]