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FreshlyBrewedCoffee
Joined: 11 Aug 2014
Posts: 11
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 Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:40 pm Post subject: Feedback from Students |
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In my experience of ESL'ing here in Vietnam, the phrase "feedback from students" means "You're fired." It's the most grotesque and diabolical and obscene of the many catchphrases in the idiom of the Vietnamistan schoolworld.
How many of you have received a tersely worded email along the lines of "due to feedback from students, your class has been canceled"?
Friends, I'm happy to tell you that my own SAT verbal section scores are unpublishable--I don't wish to boast. Higher than Harvard? Modesty prohibits me to say. That, combined with more than a decade of teaching, landed me a place at an SAT prep center here in Hanoi a few weeks ago. I went into class confident, prepared, well-presented. No, I wasn't hungover, or drunk, or unshaven. The class went well. Students complained. Gee--maybe I'm not tall and handsome and sexy enough for Hanoi's 16-year-old princesses? Who knows. What can be said is that "due to feedback from students, it's been decided that it might be better if you not teach this class at this time." Or words to that effect. "Feedback from students" is verbatim. It's predictable. It's the local way of saying "you're not likable enough--get lost."
I couldn't quite believe the effrontery and gall of a slavemaster (language center director) here in Hanoi, again, who employed the phrase FOUR TIMES in an interview with me two weeks ago. Believe it, I was counting! Was she offering me full-time employment? Part time? Any time at all? She was offering me a single 90-minute time spot the following morning, with beginning-level adult students, and the promise/threat of "feedback."
Word to the wise--the moment you hear someone say "feedback from students," you either quit that gig IMMEDIATELY, or bail on the job interview.
It will go without saying, of course, that this "feedback" remains unsubstantiated. What EXACTLY did students complain about? We'll never know. How about counter-feedback from the teacher? Ain't happenin'. A second chance? No, bro'--feedback from students don't work that way. They done fed ya back--yo' ass fired.
Feedback from teachers, anyone? |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:45 am Post subject: Re: Feedback from Students |
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| FreshlyBrewedCoffee wrote: |
How many of you have received a tersely worded email along the lines of "due to feedback from students, your class has been canceled"? |
To be honest, never, but, I'll use any excuse to post a link to this magnificent website  :
https://sites.google.com/site/englishdroid2/school-life/complaints |
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mark_in_saigon
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 837
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:22 am Post subject: |
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| You have to look at the big picture. In some countries and industries, the abilities or performance of the candidate are not the main reasons for being hired. In those countries and industries, it should then be obvious that the reasons for losing your job do not have to be based on abilities/performance. You can be the best teacher at a very good school, and documented as such, and yet also you may have been removed from your position at some second or third rate school. It does make sense in a way, which is why the lower tier schools generally avoid the first rate teachers, they are not compatible with what they have to offer. Anyone expecting professionalism over here is likely to be disappointed. It is total pot luck. Put in enough time, develop your skills and your niche, maybe you can do all right with the work. I just think anyone expecting a good job and needing the work to always pay off is not in a good position. As you said, you need to give your own feedback, I wish more of us would. Feedback from the teacher: Your operation is very Mickey Mouse and I suggest you find someone who is more desperate for work than I. Contact me for details on how to run a proper organization if you care to learn. |
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Brunouno
Joined: 18 Apr 2013
Posts: 129
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:13 am Post subject: |
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| mark_in_saigon wrote: |
| You have to look at the big picture. In some countries and industries, the abilities or performance of the candidate are not the main reasons for being hired. In those countries and industries, it should then be obvious that the reasons for losing your job do not have to be based on abilities/performance. You can be the best teacher at a very good school, and documented as such, and yet also you may have been removed from your position at some second or third rate school. It does make sense in a way, which is why the lower tier schools generally avoid the first rate teachers, they are not compatible with what they have to offer. Anyone expecting professionalism over here is likely to be disappointed. It is total pot luck. Put in enough time, develop your skills and your niche, maybe you can do all right with the work. I just think anyone expecting a good job and needing the work to always pay off is not in a good position. As you said, you need to give your own feedback, I wish more of us would. Feedback from the teacher: Your operation is very Mickey Mouse and I suggest you find someone who is more desperate for work than I. Contact me for details on how to run a proper organization if you care to learn. |
From what I've seen and experienced so far in Vietnam, all of this is true. It's best to have zero expectations and think of them as pathetic dogs until proven otherwise. This way you're less likely to be disappointed when a situation such as your own occurs. I really like living here and the majority of people are great, but sometimes I can't help but to look down at Vietnamese people when they are so superficial and jump to false conclusions; it really makes you wonder what their intelligence levels are. A lot of this probably has to do with their culture. |
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ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:55 am Post subject: |
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From what I can tell, in Asia and especially in Vietnam how likeable you are is directly related to how good of a teacher you are. If you can't connect with the students, and you lack the ability to make your class engaging and interesting enough to keep them awake then you aren't a good teacher by their standards.
I find myself wondering if that's such a bad thing. Looking back on my time as a student, I had to put up with many teachers who did a fine job of delivering the expected material, but where so boring, stiff, and unlikeable that I didn't learn nearly as much as I did in classes where the teacher was interesting enough to keep me awake.
This doesn't mean you have to dance around in a clown suit, but I've come to believe that the teacher has to communicate a certain level of passion for what he's teaching and care for his students to be considered good at his job. And I've met plenty of blokes who look great on paper, but are just terrible at what they do. You could be qualified out the wazoo, but it doesn't mean you're good at interacting with Vietnamese students.
You also have to account for the fact that in Vietnam the teacher is solely responsible for students' learning. In the West we teach that students are responsible for how much they learn, but it's opposite here. Couple that with the fact that students will stop paying to come to class if they are bored or feel they aren't improving, and it becomes clear why employers are looking for a specific kind of teacher.
I'm quite a serious teacher. I'm the not type to dance around the classroom to make my students laugh and have a good time. But what I am very good at is connecting with my students and showing them they are important to me and that I care about them. I have high expectations for my classes, and while they will sometimes remark about my strictness, they never complain to management, and at the end of the course I'm often told that I'm the best English teacher they've ever had.
I'm not saying all this to say that you're a bad teacher. It can take some getting used to Vietnamese students to understand how to effectively teach and motivate them. It's sad your school didn't give you more of an opportunity to connect with your students. But if they're paying you a higher than usual salary they may be expecting immediate results. |
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ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| Brunouno wrote: |
From what I've seen and experienced so far in Vietnam, all of this is true. It's best to have zero expectations and think of them as pathetic dogs until proven otherwise. This way you're less likely to be disappointed when a situation such as your own occurs. I really like living here and the majority of people are great, but sometimes I can't help but to look down at Vietnamese people when they are so superficial and jump to false conclusions; it really makes you wonder what their intelligence levels are. A lot of this probably has to do with their culture. |
Of course it's their culture. It has nothing to do with intelligence. Their values and ideas about education are different than yours. You really have no right to call them dogs and question their intelligence. In fact it displays your own ignorance to make such statements.
That's basic intercultural knowledge. Makes you wonder why people who choose to live in other countries don't take the time to get the most elementary intercultural lessons. |
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Brunouno
Joined: 18 Apr 2013
Posts: 129
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:28 am Post subject: |
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| ExpatLuke wrote: |
| Brunouno wrote: |
From what I've seen and experienced so far in Vietnam, all of this is true. It's best to have zero expectations and think of them as pathetic dogs until proven otherwise. This way you're less likely to be disappointed when a situation such as your own occurs. I really like living here and the majority of people are great, but sometimes I can't help but to look down at Vietnamese people when they are so superficial and jump to false conclusions; it really makes you wonder what their intelligence levels are. A lot of this probably has to do with their culture. |
Of course it's their culture. It has nothing to do with intelligence. Their values and ideas about education are different than yours. You really have no right to call them dogs and question their intelligence. In fact it displays your own ignorance to make such statements.
That's basic intercultural knowledge. Makes you wonder why people who choose to live in other countries don't take the time to get the most elementary intercultural lessons. |
I don't think your cognitive abilities were quite up to the challenge of being able to comprehend who I was referring to; I was talking about the employers at these places. If an employer seeks feedback after just one or several lessons, then I will question their intelligence. If an employer tells me not to give audio in class because I'm a native speaker anyway, I will question their intelligence. If an employer tells me what I can and cannot do outside of my working hours, then I will question their intelligence. The examples above revolve around stupidity of the employer.
There's no point talking about their culture in regards to education, because it's down very low in the priority list in these settings. Employers (I won't use 'their' to make it easier for you) culture here of do exactly what I say without questioning me or go mentally is more of a culture-related issue that has more of an effect on foreign teachers than educational methodologies.
It is a truism to state that being likeable is a big part of being an EFL/ESL teacher. It doesn't just revolve around Asians. |
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ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:59 am Post subject: |
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When you arbitrarily say "them" in a sentence when you're talking about Vietnam, it has nothing to do with the cognitive abilities of the reader, and everything to do with your poor phrasing of the sentence. 
These are the people teaching others how to communicate. |
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Okie from Muskogee
Joined: 31 Jan 2014
Posts: 55
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| I guess the kids didnt want learn. They must have been spoiled by previous clown teacher. Well, its their loss... |
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Brunouno
Joined: 18 Apr 2013
Posts: 129
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:16 am Post subject: |
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| ExpatLuke wrote: |
When you arbitrarily say "them" in a sentence when you're talking about Vietnam, it has nothing to do with the cognitive abilities of the reader, and everything to do with your poor phrasing of the sentence.
These are the people teaching others how to communicate. |
Read the quote that I was referring to and you will find that comprehension through context is your friend. Try it in the classroom; it's a great way to teach complicated lexis, but I'll be sure to omit pronouns in future topics just for 'special' people like yourself. Have a lovely day) |
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ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| Brunouno wrote: |
| ExpatLuke wrote: |
When you arbitrarily say "them" in a sentence when you're talking about Vietnam, it has nothing to do with the cognitive abilities of the reader, and everything to do with your poor phrasing of the sentence.
These are the people teaching others how to communicate. |
Read the quote that I was referring to and you will find that comprehension through context is your friend. Try it in the classroom; it's a great way to teach complicated lexis, but I'll be sure to omit pronouns in future topics just for 'special' people like yourself. Have a lovely day) |
I read the portion you quoted, and it doesn't change anything about your poor phrasing. You said "I can't help but to look down at Vietnamese people when they are so superficial and jump to false conclusions; it really makes you wonder what their intelligence levels are." No where have you even alluded to the fact that you're not talking about all Vietnamese and only the employers.
Instead of getting defensive when you've obviously made a mistake. It would probably be better to just fess up and move on. Yet here we are still discussing it. It's a shame some teachers in this country are so defensive about nearly everything. There's really a general attitude that they can't be taught anything more. Too many unteachable teachers. |
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Okie from Muskogee
Joined: 31 Jan 2014
Posts: 55
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:04 am Post subject: |
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geeze.... I'm not a violent man, but feel like punching the krap out of someone.  |
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Brunouno
Joined: 18 Apr 2013
Posts: 129
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| ExpatLuke wrote: |
| Brunouno wrote: |
| ExpatLuke wrote: |
When you arbitrarily say "them" in a sentence when you're talking about Vietnam, it has nothing to do with the cognitive abilities of the reader, and everything to do with your poor phrasing of the sentence.
These are the people teaching others how to communicate. |
Read the quote that I was referring to and you will find that comprehension through context is your friend. Try it in the classroom; it's a great way to teach complicated lexis, but I'll be sure to omit pronouns in future topics just for 'special' people like yourself. Have a lovely day) |
I read the portion you quoted, and it doesn't change anything about your poor phrasing. You said "I can't help but to look down at Vietnamese people when they are so superficial and jump to false conclusions; it really makes you wonder what their intelligence levels are." No where have you even alluded to the fact that you're not talking about all Vietnamese and only the employers.
Instead of getting defensive when you've obviously made a mistake. It would probably be better to just fess up and move on. Yet here we are still discussing it. It's a shame some teachers in this country are so defensive about nearly everything. There's really a general attitude that they can't be taught anything more. Too many unteachable teachers. |
Hehe, I'm not defensive at all, in fact, I'm trying to help you in more ways than one. Read what I've already written again and hopefully comprehensible input will take place. If not, perhaps you're more of an auditory learner and need support that way. PM me and I'll be glad to help you out, champ. As much fun as it has been, I'm not going to get into an ego-driven battle with you like you did on the topic about contracts. I'll allow you to make the final comment on this topic to give you that feeling of coming out on top as this is very important for the ego of people such as yourself |
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ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:25 am Post subject: |
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I don't see any of my comments as being ego driven. I suppose the mods can decide. I'm more than happy to back down as well. After all, I wasn't the one that decided to attack someone's "cognitive ability" just because they admonished you. |
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VietCanada
Joined: 30 Nov 2010
Posts: 590
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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I didn't need to read any further than Mr. Welsh's link. I bookmarked it. TY 1SW.
Student feedback is often a joke here. If your DOS gives you some solid advice based on feedback then ok. Play more games? Stupid but doable, for example. Being fired because of student feedback without getting actual feedback and time to adjust? Run away and please tell us the name of that school so that we may avoid it. |
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