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fpshangzhou
Joined: 13 Mar 2012
Posts: 280
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 Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:45 am Post subject: Problems with school/center admin dept? |
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Hello,
I was talking to my FAO the other day and she was telling me about some of the problems that teachers were having with office admin, such as time schedules, pay rates, lack of communication & misunderstandings teachers have with the office staff. She wants me to help her address some of these issues and hold classes for the in office staff during my office hours a couple times a week.
I would like to help clear up some of these problem areas and make communication more clear between us teachers and the Chinese office staff. Any ideas of past problems, whether it be visa related, scheduling, payment, directions to various schools or other internal issues that you teachers may have experienced, please share!
Cheers,
Aaron |
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Alien abductee
Joined: 08 Jun 2014
Posts: 527
Location: Kuala Lumpur
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:58 am Post subject: |
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| fpshangzhou wrote: |
| She wants me to help her address some of these issues and hold classes for the in office staff during my office hours a couple times a week. |
First, it's good that she recognizes the problem and wants to sort it out, but it's her problem to solve, not yours.
I'd give her this advice: the best way to deal with this is to have foreign staff list their grievances, submit them in writing to her (the FAO), and then ask her to hold a meeting where these things can be discussed and worked out with all concerned parties.
Got problems with pay? Have a rep from finance at the meeting.
Got problems with housing? Get a rep from that department too.
Problems getting teaching related info passed down the chain? Find out who's responsible for that and invite them to the meeting so they can explain what they're doing (or not doing).
Confusion about when to renew RPs? That's the FAOs job. Make sure she invites herself.
If the people you're having problems with are all in the same office (it's not clear from your post) then this should be easy to sort out.
Written submissions followed up by a general meeting gives everyone a chance to say their piece and goes a long way to solving problems. I don't think having you give lessons on how Chinese staff should be doing their job will prove useful. |
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JamesD
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
Posts: 934
Location: "As far as I'm concerned bacon comes from a magical happy place."
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| Alien abductee wrote: |
| .. I don't think having you give lessons on how Chinese staff should be doing their job will prove useful. |
It's not lessons on doing their job as much as explaining why foreigners may be unhappy. Try telling them how and why westerners prefer to be kept informed whether news is good or bad, that sticking to contract terms is important, that if pay is going to be late that most FTs will understand provided they know why and the reason is valid (holidays, vacations,...), that few people really mind schedule changes as long as they know about them early enough to plan, that days/mornings off are almost sacred,.....
It all boils down to communicating. |
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doogsville
Joined: 17 Nov 2011
Posts: 924
Location: China
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Alien abductee wrote: |
| fpshangzhou wrote: |
| She wants me to help her address some of these issues and hold classes for the in office staff during my office hours a couple times a week. |
First, it's good that she recognizes the problem and wants to sort it out, but it's her problem to solve, not yours.
I'd give her this advice: the best way to deal with this is to have foreign staff list their grievances, submit them in writing to her (the FAO), and then ask her to hold a meeting where these things can be discussed and worked out with all concerned parties.
Got problems with pay? Have a rep from finance at the meeting.
Got problems with housing? Get a rep from that department too.
Problems getting teaching related info passed down the chain? Find out who's responsible for that and invite them to the meeting so they can explain what they're doing (or not doing).
Confusion about when to renew RPs? That's the FAOs job. Make sure she invites herself.
If the people you're having problems with are all in the same office (it's not clear from your post) then this should be easy to sort out.
Written submissions followed up by a general meeting gives everyone a chance to say their piece and goes a long way to solving problems. I don't think having you give lessons on how Chinese staff should be doing their job will prove useful. |
Yep, great idea. Have a bunch of people who came to a foreign country, with no useful language skills and no knowledge of the culture or norms of that foreign country, tell the natives of that country that not only are they not doing their jobs properly, but that you will give them no help or advice whatsoever about how to do the job properly. You will simply present them with a list of grievances and things they really ought to sort out to make your life better as soon as is possible. I could see how that would work.
Or. You could face up to the fact that things are different here. You could learn about the culture of face, for example, and educate yourself about how, in Chinese culture, it is quite acceptable to pretend that something that happened didn't happen, or to lie about it, so save both yours and the other persons face. You could make an attempt to understand that Chinese culture places massive importance on hierarchy and ones place in society. That might lead you to understand that the reason why you are given five minutes notice is because you are at the bottom of the pecking order. Knowledge is power, and you have no power. Is it good? Is it right? No, but it's there, and it ain't going to change any time soon just because some foreign teachers are unhappy about it.
So. You could sit down with your Chinese colleagues, and try to reach an understanding. A compromise if you will. You could thank them for their willingness to hear your requests, you could explain to them the differences in your cultures, and tell them that, while you are not judging their culture and finding fault, you nonetheless would be very happy if they could see their way clear to accommodating some of your requests.
Just saying. |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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Previous post is right but it only underlines the need to do this in a consultative manner. Works in the West too - surprise!
My constant beef is mail items not passed on in a timely manner.
I used to subscribe to the weekly Economist magazine and the FAO who were generally cooperative couldn't be bothered sending a quick email to say the latest edition was in the office.
Grrr.. |
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Capt Lugwash
Joined: 14 Aug 2014
Posts: 346
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, loss of face is a big issue in China isn't it?
How many of us struggle to get students to speak in class because they are frightened of losing face by giving a wrong answer? Own up.
Oh yes, loss of face is huge here.
And yet they are more than willing to have the humiliation of being caught playing games or watching films on their mobile phones in your class aren't they?
Don't let them give you that baloney. I actually caught two students when a class was being filmed for a video watching a film directly underneath the camera! The crew came another day and filmed another class.
Loss of face my backside. It's a panacea. |
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Alien abductee
Joined: 08 Jun 2014
Posts: 527
Location: Kuala Lumpur
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| doogsville wrote: |
| Alien abductee wrote: |
| fpshangzhou wrote: |
| She wants me to help her address some of these issues and hold classes for the in office staff during my office hours a couple times a week. |
First, it's good that she recognizes the problem and wants to sort it out, but it's her problem to solve, not yours.
I'd give her this advice: the best way to deal with this is to have foreign staff list their grievances, submit them in writing to her (the FAO), and then ask her to hold a meeting where these things can be discussed and worked out with all concerned parties.
Got problems with pay? Have a rep from finance at the meeting.
Got problems with housing? Get a rep from that department too.
Problems getting teaching related info passed down the chain? Find out who's responsible for that and invite them to the meeting so they can explain what they're doing (or not doing).
Confusion about when to renew RPs? That's the FAOs job. Make sure she invites herself.
If the people you're having problems with are all in the same office (it's not clear from your post) then this should be easy to sort out.
Written submissions followed up by a general meeting gives everyone a chance to say their piece and goes a long way to solving problems. I don't think having you give lessons on how Chinese staff should be doing their job will prove useful. |
Yep, great idea. Have a bunch of people who came to a foreign country, with no useful language skills and no knowledge of the culture or norms of that foreign country, tell the natives of that country that not only are they not doing their jobs properly, but that you will give them no help or advice whatsoever about how to do the job properly. You will simply present them with a list of grievances and things they really ought to sort out to make your life better as soon as is possible. I could see how that would work.
Or. You could face up to the fact that things are different here. You could learn about the culture of face, for example, |
I did not in any way suggest making ridiculous demands of anyone, or be disrespectful. In a nutshell I said outline the problems in writing (for clarity, so people have time to digest and understand them), and then ask for a meeting to sort them out. That's what any successful organization would do. Schools in this country have been hiring foreigners for many years now, and if they want to keep them they need to be willing to listen to complaints and make some compromises to sort them out. Schools that don't learn that lesson will find they have a quickly revolving door of teachers passing through. Using the concept of "saving face" as cover for poor performance in this day and age is a cop-out. Some of the more experienced and enlightened FAOs (including the one that's the topic of this thread) have caught on to that and are taking action.
| doogsville wrote: |
| So. You could sit down with your Chinese colleagues, and try to reach an understanding. A compromise if you will. You could thank them for their willingness to hear your requests, you could explain to them the differences in your cultures, and tell them that, while you are not judging their culture and finding fault, you nonetheless would be very happy if they could see their way clear to accommodating some of your requests. |
Then it looks like we agree. |
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wangdaning
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:06 am Post subject: |
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| doogsville wrote: |
Yep, great idea. Have a bunch of people who came to a foreign country, with no useful language skills and no knowledge of the culture or norms of that foreign country, tell the natives of that country that not only are they not doing their jobs properly, but that you will give them no help or advice whatsoever about how to do the job properly. You will simply present them with a list of grievances and things they really ought to sort out to make your life better as soon as is possible. I could see how that would work.
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Just want to note that knowing the language and culture might amplify issues. At times it makes it way more annoying. |
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doogsville
Joined: 17 Nov 2011
Posts: 924
Location: China
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:57 am Post subject: |
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| Alien abductee wrote: |
Then it looks like we agree. |
Quite possibly, apologies if I misconstrued your message, I'd had a few beers.
My point though, is that foreigners here in China often rant and complain that things are not how they would like them to be, without giving a thought to why they are how they are. The culture of face is massive here. Is it useful? No, at least not in my opinion. I think it's the biggest single thing that is blocking China and it's people from moving forward to becoming a fully fledged first world nation. The idea that embarrassing someone, or rather, someone being embarrassed by their own mistake/stupidity is a terrible thing to do and must be avoided at all costs, is ludicrous. At least to me. And that's the point. It's not ludicrous to most Chinese people, it's perfectly normal and acceptable.
Also, in my experience, Chinese people don't withhold information, do things that seem to defy common sense and logic and lie about it to save face because they are either stupid, lazy or both. They do it mostly because they are locked in to a set of complicated rules that govern their lives and have done for thousands of years. Long before any foreigners appeared on the scene. Breaking those rules is almost impossible for many of them.
Now I think that a lot of those rules, while they may have been useful a hundred years or more ago, are not fit for purpose in today's modern world. They no longer serve a useful function. But they are there, and they are not going to go away in the short term. That is why I think it is best to learn about them, and take them into account when dealing with your Chinese colleagues and friends. The appliance of logic and common sense has nothing to do with it. The appliance of respect and tolerance has everything to do with it.
Asking a Chinese person to set aside notions of face and social structure and hierarchy is akin to asking a fundamental Christian or Muslim to set aside the notion of God. So why bother? Why not just work within the situation in front of you? |
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wangdaning
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:28 am Post subject: |
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| doogsville wrote: |
Breaking those rules is almost impossible for many of them.
Asking a Chinese person to set aside notions of face and social structure and hierarchy is akin to asking a fundamental Christian or Muslim to set aside the notion of God. So why bother? Why not just work within the situation in front of you? |
You can't be serious. It almost seems like you have no friends. It is a regional and status issue. Some people are snobs, but that should not equate to Chinese people. People who think they are too great to do something wrong are often the people doing something wrong.
Mianzi is not the same as arrogance in most cases. It might be a long standing issue you stumbled into. Like I said though, it is not something clear or specific. It is an abstract idea that is situational. |
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doogsville
Joined: 17 Nov 2011
Posts: 924
Location: China
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| wangdaning wrote: |
| doogsville wrote: |
Breaking those rules is almost impossible for many of them.
Asking a Chinese person to set aside notions of face and social structure and hierarchy is akin to asking a fundamental Christian or Muslim to set aside the notion of God. So why bother? Why not just work within the situation in front of you? |
You can't be serious. It almost seems like you have no friends. It is a regional and status issue. Some people are snobs, but that should not equate to Chinese people. People who think they are too great to do something wrong are often the people doing something wrong.
Mianzi is not the same as arrogance in most cases. It might be a long standing issue you stumbled into. Like I said though, it is not something clear or specific. It is an abstract idea that is situational. |
I'm sorry, but as with so many of your posts, I have no idea what you are trying to say. |
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wangdaning
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| doogsville wrote: |
| wangdaning wrote: |
| doogsville wrote: |
Breaking those rules is almost impossible for many of them.
Asking a Chinese person to set aside notions of face and social structure and hierarchy is akin to asking a fundamental Christian or Muslim to set aside the notion of God. So why bother? Why not just work within the situation in front of you? |
You can't be serious. It almost seems like you have no friends. It is a regional and status issue. Some people are snobs, but that should not equate to Chinese people. People who think they are too great to do something wrong are often the people doing something wrong.
Mianzi is not the same as arrogance in most cases. It might be a long standing issue you stumbled into. Like I said though, it is not something clear or specific. It is an abstract idea that is situational. |
I'm sorry, but as with so many of your posts, I have no idea what you are trying to say. |
Well, that would imply you had no clue what you were trying to say. |
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Listerine
Joined: 15 Jun 2014
Posts: 340
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:39 am Post subject: |
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It would be nice if emailing or texting the powers that be a couple / few questions at once that *all* could be answered, not just one. Likewise if if i send "Is there a public holiday next week? What day is it? Will there be a make-up day later?" replying "Yes", or "Okay" probably doesn't really clarify things too clearly for me.
A simple question like "What day will the pay go into the bank?" shouldn't require a 24 hour, 20 text message exchange.
Just my personal gripe, but I do believe the communication issue is massive. It's crazy to find out the time, date and room for final exams from your students rather than the DOS / FAO. Doesn't help instill respect or any belief in the kiddos' minds that the FT has any idea what they're doing.
When most of us foreigners first arrive in China we are essentially babies. Can't talk, feed ourselves, get around on our own, gut problems so bad we practically have to return to diapers.
The new guys really need to be mollycoddled for the first few weeks if you expect them to be happy or do a good job. Whether that means the school taking some time to make and print a basic information sheet, assigning an FT or English speaking student to show them around at first or even just being available to answer whatever inane questions the newcomer might have makes a world of difference. Having smelly Sally cry herself to sleep every night because she's so culturally lost and homesick doesn't really benefit anyone - certainly not when she does a runner 3 weeks later. |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:56 am Post subject: |
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You have a way with words Listerine!
Having been in a situation where I was the more experienced FT and extending a helping hand to Newbes, on several occasions I've reflected that I wish I hadn't! |
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