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The Understanding Language Police
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:13 pm    Post subject: The Understanding Language Police Reply with quote

Why grammar lessons should be renamed ‘understanding language'

"It’s an exciting time for grammar, according to the experts. But there’s a need for fresh thinking and the word itself can be misleading

Some of the country’s most eminent linguists came together for English Grammar Day, presented by UCL and Oxford University in association with the British Library, last week. With talks from grammarians including David Crystal and Dick Hudson, the event served as a crash course in the history, prevalence and importance of grammar. The main focus, however, was on the problems with how grammar is taught in schools.

How things have to improve was made clear: we need to embrace grammar, teach it in context and uphold its importance within the education system. One answer is to call it something else. Lindsey Thomas, school improvement consultant at Buckinghamshire Learning Trust, suggested that teachers replace the word “grammar” with “understanding language”.

Using the word “grammar”, she said, can conjure off-putting images of an old-fashioned classroom. It makes it sound like a secret you’re not let in on, and has associations of “right” or “wrong”. On the other hand, “understanding” or “knowledge about language” make it sound more positive.

Crystal said: “You have to put the notion of grammar in the background. It’s about meaning and clarity. Clarity unites us. I’m not afraid to use the word grammar, but I can see why people would be.”

It’s not just grammar’s name that’s the problem. In addition to its unshakeable, unhelpful reputation, there are deeper issues. The government’s Spelling, Punctuation and Grammar (SPaG) tests were repeatedly mentioned as the main barrier to children’s learning, and Crystal was probably the most vehement in his criticism.

“Grammar needs context,” he said. “With the new SPaG tests children get marks for underlining a noun. It seems like all the fresh thinking has gone and the clocks have been turned back. There’s no room for creativity with the SPaG tests because they’re about identifying, not understanding.”

Crystal said the work being done in classrooms across the UK to tackle such problems, and the people behind it, had shaped his own outlook and approach towards teaching grammar. He says it’s all about involving children in enjoyable grammar exercises, showing them, and asking them “why” and “what if?”

He has been working with Thomas on the Buckinghamshire Grammar Project. “I don’t understand why this sort of thing isn’t happening in more schools,” he said. His sentence trailed off with the word “expensive”.

There may be a glimmer of hope in the curriculum. Hudson, who is the government’s adviser on grammar for the SPaG test, said the 2016 version would be “very different”. This was all he would say on the matter, but I’m hopeful that, in this instance, different could mean better.

Even if the tests don’t improve, there’s no knowing how far the prevailing force of the grammarians will reach. They are leading the way, armed with expertise and conviction, and getting into classrooms to teach grammar in contextualised and engaging ways.

As well as the influence of grammarians, children also have the grammar renaissance on their side. Hudson said: “In the 60s, a day like today would be unimaginable. But it’s very different now. It’s a big issue and it’s an exciting time for grammar. Grammar is old, international and big. It isn’t a peculiarity of a few people who think it’s a good idea.

“Between 1920 and 1960, English grammar disappeared from the curriculum of most schools in England. There was no research being done on grammar. Since the 1960s it has been gradually reintroduced, and now, once again, has a central place in the curriculum.”

It all sounds promising for pupils, but this made me think about my generation of twentysomethings. Typical self-obsessed Gen Y, I know, but I’ve sensed a distinct lack of interest in grammar among my age group.

David Crystal says I am part of the “last of a lost generation” who didn’t learn proper grammar. But with the UK now emerging from this grammar lull, a detritus of lingering grammar myths and unconfident “lost generation” teachers are left behind. This combination isn’t conducive to children learning grammar, and often means teachers are unwittingly teaching incorrect things.

With this in mind, I asked Crystal if there is any hope for my “lost” generation. He said all we can do to improve our grammar is attend events like Grammar Day. It was only afterwards that I wondered why he hadn’t suggested reading books – especially as he’d just been signing copies of his own."

http://www.theguardian.com/media/mind-your-language/2014/jul/11/mind-your-language-grammar-day

Regards,
John
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adaruby



Joined: 21 Apr 2014
Posts: 171
Location: has served on a hiring committee

PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 12:20 am    Post subject: Re: The Understanding Language Police Reply with quote

johnslat wrote:
Why grammar lessons should be renamed ‘understanding language'

"It’s an exciting time for grammar, according to the experts. But there’s a need for fresh thinking and the word itself can be misleading

Some of the country’s most eminent linguists came together for English Grammar Day, presented by UCL and Oxford University in association with the British Library, last week. With talks from grammarians including David Crystal and Dick Hudson, the event served as a crash course in the history, prevalence and importance of grammar. The main focus, however, was on the problems with how grammar is taught in schools.

How things have to improve was made clear: we need to embrace grammar, teach it in context and uphold its importance within the education system. One answer is to call it something else. Lindsey Thomas, school improvement consultant at Buckinghamshire Learning Trust, suggested that teachers replace the word “grammar” with “understanding language”.

Using the word “grammar”, she said, can conjure off-putting images of an old-fashioned classroom. It makes it sound like a secret you’re not let in on, and has associations of “right” or “wrong”. On the other hand, “understanding” or “knowledge about language” make it sound more positive.

Crystal said: “You have to put the notion of grammar in the background. It’s about meaning and clarity. Clarity unites us. I’m not afraid to use the word grammar, but I can see why people would be.”

It’s not just grammar’s name that’s the problem. In addition to its unshakeable, unhelpful reputation, there are deeper issues. The government’s Spelling, Punctuation and Grammar (SPaG) tests were repeatedly mentioned as the main barrier to children’s learning, and Crystal was probably the most vehement in his criticism.

“Grammar needs context,” he said. “With the new SPaG tests children get marks for underlining a noun. It seems like all the fresh thinking has gone and the clocks have been turned back. There’s no room for creativity with the SPaG tests because they’re about identifying, not understanding.”

Crystal said the work being done in classrooms across the UK to tackle such problems, and the people behind it, had shaped his own outlook and approach towards teaching grammar. He says it’s all about involving children in enjoyable grammar exercises, showing them, and asking them “why” and “what if?”

He has been working with Thomas on the Buckinghamshire Grammar Project. “I don’t understand why this sort of thing isn’t happening in more schools,” he said. His sentence trailed off with the word “expensive”.

There may be a glimmer of hope in the curriculum. Hudson, who is the government’s adviser on grammar for the SPaG test, said the 2016 version would be “very different”. This was all he would say on the matter, but I’m hopeful that, in this instance, different could mean better.

Even if the tests don’t improve, there’s no knowing how far the prevailing force of the grammarians will reach. They are leading the way, armed with expertise and conviction, and getting into classrooms to teach grammar in contextualised and engaging ways.

As well as the influence of grammarians, children also have the grammar renaissance on their side. Hudson said: “In the 60s, a day like today would be unimaginable. But it’s very different now. It’s a big issue and it’s an exciting time for grammar. Grammar is old, international and big. It isn’t a peculiarity of a few people who think it’s a good idea.

“Between 1920 and 1960, English grammar disappeared from the curriculum of most schools in England. There was no research being done on grammar. Since the 1960s it has been gradually reintroduced, and now, once again, has a central place in the curriculum.”

It all sounds promising for pupils, but this made me think about my generation of twentysomethings. Typical self-obsessed Gen Y, I know, but I’ve sensed a distinct lack of interest in grammar among my age group.

David Crystal says I am part of the “last of a lost generation” who didn’t learn proper grammar. But with the UK now emerging from this grammar lull, a detritus of lingering grammar myths and unconfident “lost generation” teachers are left behind. This combination isn’t conducive to children learning grammar, and often means teachers are unwittingly teaching incorrect things.

With this in mind, I asked Crystal if there is any hope for my “lost” generation. He said all we can do to improve our grammar is attend events like Grammar Day. It was only afterwards that I wondered why he hadn’t suggested reading books – especially as he’d just been signing copies of his own."

http://www.theguardian.com/media/mind-your-language/2014/jul/11/mind-your-language-grammar-day

Regards,
John


"While without grammar very little can be conveyed, without vocabulary nothing can be conveyed."

Vocabulary > grammar.
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear adaruby,

I don't believe the writer of the article (or anyone else) is saying or implying that grammar is more important /greater than vocabulary. Actually, I don't think it's a contest in which one aspect of langauge learning wins the title of "Most Important Aspect."

And it does seen self-evident that any learner needs to know vocabulary first in order to then be able to create phrases, clauses, and sentences.

So, did you have any other point that I'm missing?

Regards,
John
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spiral78



Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash

PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh. You mean, we can't 'teach' just one or the other? Cool Laughing
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adaruby



Joined: 21 Apr 2014
Posts: 171
Location: has served on a hiring committee

PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear John,

You are a terminal bore who repeatedly posts about grammar and its more irrelevant points.

Regards,

Ruby


Last edited by adaruby on Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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MuscatGary



Joined: 03 Jun 2013
Posts: 1364
Location: Flying around the ME...

PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spiral78 wrote:
Oh. You mean, we can't 'teach' just one or the other? Cool Laughing


Didn't we have this discussion recently?
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear adaruby,

"So, did you have any other point that I'm missing?"

"You are a terminal bore who repeatedly posts about grammar and its more irrelevant points. "

Hmm, I take it that's a "No." Very Happy

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/44/c8/8a/44c88a1da6b4806197348dcc8200b731.jpg


Regards,
John
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spiral78



Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash

PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Didn't we have this discussion recently?


Aw. Can't we argue this old chestnut again? It's been a slow summer;-)

More entertaining than the hamster-wheel CELTA-is-useless-no-it-isn't argument, at least!

Anyway, back to johnslat and his grammar posts, I'm rather grateful, though I don't always join in. Many of us actually have students who are motivated and high-level enough to appreciate the finer points of English grammar explained in interesting ways.

Perhaps adaruby's students wouldn't have the vocab to appreciate higher-level grammar discussions;-)
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scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343

PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder how Adaruby approaches Etiquette in the classroom !
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Chancellor



Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)

PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grammar is the structure of a language, the "how it works" of language. Instead of calling it understanding language, maybe call it something like language structure or the mechanics of language.
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buravirgil



Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China

PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chancellor wrote:
Grammar is the structure of a language, the "how it works" of language. Instead of calling it understanding language, maybe call it something like language structure or the mechanics of language.

Respectfully, that is the conventional defintion/description Crystal is attempting to reform because it is neither exact or complete. When Crystal states
    “You have to put the notion of grammar in the background. It’s about meaning and clarity. Clarity unites us."
He is applying the conclusions of Linguistics and Semiotics-- he is, from the Ivory Tower, stating facts and asking why they can't be applied.

But Chancellor's reaction, to what I think they interpret to be a euphemism, is one I share, to a degree. Crystal offers no examples of appropriate contexts; He appeals to a frame. Chancellor's reaction will likely be common because, other than addressing a challenge, Crystal's not offered much.

However I am 99% sure this was Crystal's intention for this particular article. I'm sure the context and creativity he advocates exist as materials and expressions he has already developed along with many other like-minded teachers and researchers.

Nothing in this article is controversial among academics on either side of the Pond. This statement
    “Grammar needs context,” he said. “With the new SPaG tests children get marks for underlining a noun. It seems like all the fresh thinking has gone and the clocks have been turned back. There’s no room for creativity with the SPaG tests because they’re about identifying, not understanding.”
Is an uncomplicated matter of applying Bloom's Taxonomy.

Because Crystal and Hudson are addressing policy (method/testing), how their concern is applied becomes the "meat" of it.
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ntropy



Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 671
Location: ghurba

PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "real language police" are most aggressive within Canada's borders, in the province of Quebec.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-22408248

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/03/12/quebec-language-police-order-mandys-salad-bar-to-remove-vintage-english-signs-from-shop-in-anglophone-area/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_qu%C3%A9b%C3%A9cois_de_la_langue_fran%C3%A7aise


Rebelling against Quebec's 'language police'


The Canadian province of Quebec has seen a resurgence of its bitter language wars since Francophone nationalists returned to power last year. Now, some English speakers are rebelling against the "language police", reports Lorraine Mallinder.

Quebec's ruling Parti Quebecois is pushing a new law through the provincial parliament that would further reduce the use of English in schools, hospitals and shops.

As a result, many Anglophones fear they are being squeezed into insignificance.

Continue reading the main story

Start Quote

It's misleading to say that French is the founding culture of Quebec - Quebec has at its root two European founding peoples”

Pearl Eliadis
Human rights lawyer
For Harry Schick, owner of a pastry shop in Pointe Claire, an English-speaking municipality west of Montreal, it is nothing new.

His shop window, emblazoned with signs in 35 different languages, has attracted visits from what critics deride as the province's language police.

Inspectors from L'Office quebecois de la langue francaise - the Quebec French language office - say the lettering of French signs should be three times bigger than that of other languages.

But Schick, who has been taken to court and fined in the past, refuses to back down.

"Is a Francophone customer three times bigger than an Anglophone customer?" he asks.

"They deserve equal rights and equal billing. I want to take care of my customers in whatever language I can."

Two students in Montreal
Expressions of Francophone pride are common throughout Quebec
Last week, he again sent inspectors packing - and they promised to return.

Schick's case is the latest in a series of confrontations that have set social networks and talk radio shows abuzz.

In the so-called "pastagate" scandal, language inspectors attempted to strike the word "pasta" from the menu of a Montreal Italian restaurant.

And in October, Montrealers were appalled by a man's report that a French-speaking paramedic had refused to speak English to him while treating his convulsing toddler.

The public transport system has also been the scene of altercations between French-speaking staff and English-speaking passengers.

A French-English "welcome" signs in the Laurentian Mountains of Quebec
Bilingual signs can be seen across the province and beyond
Tensions are running high in a province that seemed to have struck a linguistic peace of sorts since the heady days of Quebec nationalism, periods marked by two failed referenda on independence in 1980 and 1995.

In the late 1970s, the first Parti Quebecois government passed Bill 101, a law establishing French as the main language of Quebec. The law mandated the use of French in the workplace and required immigrants from outside the province to attend Francophone schools.

The proposed new law would further bolster French.

Among other measures, it would deny official bilingual status to some municipalities and restrict entry to English-speaking post-secondary colleges.

Students who speak French, for example, would automatically be placed at the back of the admissions queue, a move Quebec nationalists say would protect English-speaking students. Critics, however, say this would marginalise English-speaking colleges.

Quebec minister Jean-Francois Lisee of the Parti Quebecois is tasked with building bridges to the province's embattled Anglophone population.

Supporters of Parti Quebecois at a rally
The Parti Quebecois introduced the 1970s-era bill making French the province's official language
He acknowledges that the "tough" measures will have to be toned down to win cross-party support.

His party leads a minority government but is counting on the support of the Coalition Avenir Quebec, itself led by a former nationalist.

The new language bill is necessary in a country where the French language is under threat, he says.

He believes that Canadian bilingualism, which became official federal policy in the late 1960s under the Liberal government of Pierre Trudeau, is not working.

According to Lisee, 50% of every new generation of French speakers from British Columbia to Ontario adopt English as a mother tongue.

But Quebec's language laws have stemmed the Anglophone tide, he says.

Continue reading the main story
Quebec over the years

1968 Pierre Trudeau becomes PM and Parti Quebecois is formed
1980 Referendum on Quebec separation is defeated
1998 Supreme Court rules that if Quebec votes to secede, it can only do so with federal government's consent
2006 Parliament agrees Quebecois should be considered a "nation"
2007 Action Democratic Party, supporting more autonomy for Quebec, makes gains
2012 Gunman kills a man at a separatist election victory rally in Quebec
Source: BBC

Today, he says, 85% of children of immigrants to the province are schooled in French.

But a number of elite institutions on both sides of the linguistic divide, including the Quebec Bar Association, the Human Rights Commission and the province's 48 post-secondary colleges, have come out against the proposed law, warning the changes will trample on individual rights.

"This isn't about taking sides," says Pearl Eliadis, a human rights lawyer who has testified on behalf of the bar association.

"It's misleading to say that French is the founding culture of Quebec - Quebec has at its root two European founding peoples."

The English, she says, were not far behind the French.

"At the end of the day, this is about harnessing nationalism," she says.

For Lisee, Quebec's independence is only a matter of time.

Prime Minister Pierre Elliott Trudeau
Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau oversaw the institution of a national policy of French-English bilingualism
"The relationship between Canada and Quebec is like the last stages of a couple that will divorce at some point," says Lisee.

"There's no love, there's no hate, there's not even any resentment. There's simply nothing there."

He is, however, at pains to point out his apparent indifference doesn't extend to Quebec's Anglophones.

"They are welcome to stay," he says. "This is also their home."

The sentiment may not be reciprocated. A February survey found that 42% of the province's English speakers are considering leaving the province.

Schick, who has received support from Francophone and Anglophone customers alike, is among them.

"Quebec is my home as long as it doesn't separate from Canada," he says. "There comes a point where you have to say, 'That's enough.'"

Lorraine Mallinder is a freelance journalist based in Montreal. She is a regular contributor to the BBC World Service, Radio Canada and The Irish Times.
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wangdaning



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154

PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To the article in the OP, seems they desire to use a figure of speech to make grammar more exciting. Hard to understand that without grammar. This will also put strain on second language teachers. Are all languages to now change, how will students react when confronted with the word in another language, will dictionaries change the meanings, etc?

It is ironic that even grammarians are suggesting changing the wording to make their subject more entertaining to students. What a bunch of sellouts. No one ever though that not everyone needs to be taught grammar in the first place. Education is for those who enjoy learning, if you don't it seems like a waste of resources.
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Henry_Cowell



Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley

PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I happen to like Crystal's definition: "understanding language."

I think this definition helps to put the focus on how language works and not on how language is merely structured.

And if we can then move from "understanding language" to "understanding how language communicates," we'll be in great shape to teach English to 21st-century learners.
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Agamemnon



Joined: 24 Jun 2014
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I may be so bold to chip in here, ironic I think that grammar has to acquire a new label to make it more acceptable to learners and educators alike. Having said that, the perception these days seems to state that grammar centered language learning is not the way forward anymore and is outdated and learner centered thingymebob is the way to go. Just my two cents worth!
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