Job Discussion Forums

[Voyeur]

I'm curious how China veterans with good jobs have acquired those jobs. In particular, I'm curious about those who haven't upped their formal qualifications to do so: western teacher status, DELTA, MA TESOL, any Masters, etc.

It seems like in general, the trend in ESL is for stagnant salaries with increasing responsibilities. This means that combined with inflation, ESL jobs are essentially becoming less and less lucrative. But this is just the average.

Many posters seem to have good base jobs, either with a high salary, or more commonly, with a very good working hours to salary ration (time being money here, this sets you up for other sources of income).

How were such jobs attained? What is your experience? In particular, I'm wondering if you went up the salary/working hours ladder just be virtue of being in-country longer and getting advance word on better jobs (and thus jumping from job to job)/ Or did you start at one job with an average wage, and by virtue of working hard and getting a good reputation, slowly improve your job conditions?

Also, how important was learning Chinese, or getting a good network, in finding a high quality job? Did you have to jump from city to city, or is it better to build up contacts, references, and reputation in the same place?

I know this takes time--maybe 4-5 years or more--but I'd like to make sure I'm on the right track. I don't have a lot of formal qualifications--just the basics--but I'm very good at teaching (or so I'm usually told) with a lot of experience. I'd considered getting a teacher's certification in a western country, but I really don't want to. I could not stand a Western teaching job as I hate bureaucracy or a high-ratio of non-classroom to classroom work. I know that international schools are a bit better in these regards, but not by enough. However, I have noticed that with qualified teaching status, you can pretty much automatically get a lot of what are essentially ESL (or ESL-style jobs with low non-classroom requirements) at a salary/working hours ratio that is much higher than average. Essentially, you automatically get what it might take a non-QTS teacher years to work up to. And should a non-QTS teachers 'great job' suddenly disappear after a few years (as they often do), he might be back at square one. So I'd appreciate any comments as to whether basic QTS status is a good investment for someone looking to work another 25+ years in Asia, and wanting the kinds of jobs I've been talking about.

Thanks,

V.

[Non Sequitur]

'It seems like in general, the trend in ESL is for stagnant salaries with increasing responsibilities. This means that combined with inflation, ESL jobs are essentially becoming less and less lucrative. But this is just the average'.
You can expect another 500pm for doing a DTA role but generally the above is correct - at least in the public sector. Factors like an 'airfare allowance' rather than reimbursement is a particular change for the worse in recent years.
Countering this, is the general strengthening of the RMB against Western currencies.
In the chain schools you can go up the management structure to higher pay.
Whether is was worth it depends on the ownership.

[Bud Powell]

What ladder?

You assume that there's some sort of progression to increasing one's income in China. In the public sector, one must job hop from one lower-paying job to a higher paying one. Experience and education helps a bit, but just being ready to take the higher-paying job is more important.

[Voyeur]

Thanks Bud. I guess that is my implied point--or question: is there any kind of ladder? Will most employers, if you are good, retain you and pay you more and more over time. Or is the salary you get at a job in the first year typically somewhere near the best that employer can--or is prepared to--offer, and thus if you want to climb a 'ladder' it needs to be one of your own making, i.e. job hop as you get more experience, and more importantly, acquire better knowledge of what is available?

[wangdaning]

[Voyeur]

Thanks Wangdaning. I'm learning quickly that with this thread, and another similar one, I am effectively barking up the wrong tree. I'm asking for advice based on trends that in fact do not really exist. The Chinese market is very divergent, almost seeming random at times. At one location there may be a ladder you can climb, at another their first offer is the best offer. This is of course true to some extent everywhere, but it seems doubly true here. There is no guidance to be given about what is an average salary, what is a 'fair' rate, or what you can expect. All one can do is become as informed as possible about what is available (in Asia, in China, and in your City); develop their personal contacts and references as best they can; and on their own find and negotiate the best job conditions that they can, all the while knowing that you will probably never have the best--or the worst--job. Just do what you can to make ESL work for you. And always remember that there are a lot of important factors besides money and classroom hours to consider--as if the latter two didn't make the calculations complicated enough! In time, I'm sure the market will become at least somewhat more efficient and transparent, and thus one's calculations at least somewhat easier to make. But for now it is still a bit of the Wild East. Thanks for the help guys, and patience with a guy who has clearly been asking the wrong questions, or at least asking questions in the wrong way.

[toteach]

Very few places have a published pay scale, so each teacher could be paid differently for the same qualifications or the same for different qualifications... No one knows unless they talk about it, and finances are always a bit tricky to bring up to colleagues.

At previous schools, there was about a 10% increase in pay per year with each re-sign. At the school I'm now at, it's a flat re-sign bonus.

[kev7161]

If you stay at one job year after year, chances are your salary will increase with each new contract signed. If you show you are a dependable, well-prepared, hard-working teacher, most schools would want to retain you I'd imagine. Once you show them what you've got that first year, you have a little more negotiation power and can not only ask for more salary, but maybe some better perks here and there.

I won't go into details on all my pay and bonuses and perks, but being at the same school for 9 years (and now starting my 10th) allows me a really good net salary and living quarters and medical and airfare and more. The school trusts me because I am never late, never call in sick, don't drink (so never hungover) and, here's a concept, actually know what I'm doing when it comes to teaching my course material!

It's not all peaches and cream, of course. I have good days and bad as does the school. But for the most part, I go in, do my job, and go home. No fuss, no muss.

[Bud Powell]

My response comes from experience in public universities. In public universities, there is no chance to advance oneself and make more money.

Private language schools are a different matter altogether. They are for-profit concerns. Public institutions don't have profits with which they can share with their FTs. With more time invested in a public universities comes pay increases--- for Chinese teachers. They believe that we're already overpaid.

[Banner41]

I have been successful at the job hopping. I am making exponentially more than when I first came to China 5 years ago but I was willing to finish contracts and take opportunities in other cities and or provinces. I am flexible and can do that because I am not tied down with family. I have progressively moved to bigger cities which has always meant more money/better working conditions/benefits. I wouldn't take a new contract that was a lateral move. Honestly it really depends on your ambition. Some are fine with a quiet, comfortable, secure life at the same school or same city. It's really up to you.

[Markness]

Hey OP,

I think there are a few routes to take...

I worked at a public school as my first job here which was supposed to only be "15 teaching hours", but was actually less than that. The problem was that they expected me to be there from 830-430 Monday to Friday, even if I wasn't teaching. Universities offer good accommodations and low teaching hours, but I don't know if they exactly block the classes all together all the time, which can create a strain on your social life if you are chasing the buck.

I now work at a new training school that is Chengdu's version of EF, however, they are small and are exploding. I have moved up the ladder already in a very short amount of time and have nearly tripled the salary of my first employer. I only have "5" more teaching hours and yeah.. the salary definitely makes up for it. They like me a lot there and are hinting for giving me some room to move on up even more. I think I have gotten lucky in a sense. However, not all things are perfect there, I deal with incompetent Chinese staff who are atrocious at communicating and are fantastic at making a simple question turn into an unnecessarily long dialogue. I also had to be a whiny baby (aka put my foot down), and try to get them to block my classes close together. No one wants to work 930-1015 in the morning and then not have an another class until 4pm in the afternoon. This is not something that everyone seems to do at my school for whatever reason... Also, the staff are so incompetent that they "mis-calculate" classes/pay REGULARLY, and I have to keep a record to prove that they fucked up. The changes that I have made along side the manager at my company has been that the staff has to send us our hours on a weekly basis so that we can check that they didn't mess up on their calculations. I wonder if we got paid overtime for every hour they messed up on how many errors they'd make... hmm...

The other option is doing the IELTs route but they don't offer a proper visa. This gig would be perfect for someone who is married to a local (as you would have a marriage visa that allows you to stay in the orient as long as you want, and you TECHNICALLY can't work on it, but I haven't heard of any problems... )

I can't think of anything else unless you are a wizard with the Chinese and pick up the ol "jing ju" Da Shan route and become an entertainer.

Good luck with whatever you do!

Mark

[Voyeur]

Thanks again for the input. The many different paths that posters have taken to get to their own pots of gold suggests that there is indeed no road map to ESL riches in China. Trial and error.

[Voyeur]

Would you say that when trying to make the 'bigger bucks' (relative to China), and not dealing with true international school positions, it's better to be in the bigger cities? Not just meaning Tier 3 to Tier 2, but Tier 2 to Tier 1, and even from Tier 1 to a bigger Tier 1 (Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen, etc.)?

I know that for more average jobs, the extra rent and living expenses in a bigger city can sometimes make the overall compensation even out compared to a smaller one. But it seems like for the top jobs, purely money-wise, the bigger the better.

I do know there is a lot more to consider than just cash, but I'm just trying to get a handle on the money situation for now.

[Shroob]

[weigookin74]