Job Discussion Forums

[Theresa]

Um has anyone else become paranoid after working in Turkey??????? Heres the list of people İ dont trust - to varying dgrees- at work: the owner, management and 99% of the teachers both yabanci and locals.İ know that its high time to get out of this place -and İ have a plan_ but İm really curious to find out if anyone has experienced the same. Oh and has anyone been discriminated against for having a Kurdish boyfriend/girlfriend? My students are quite nice though. And my boyfriend of course ( who according to the gossip at the school beats me up which is apparently why İm unhappy at work......... ) . Time for a holiday İ think

[ghost]

Welcome to Turkey...the land of the smiles, endless cups of tea, chat and ``bla-bla`` ...but then reality sets in, and you see what many Turks are like beneath that false, benevolent exterior.

You have got to understand that the vast majority of school owners in Turkey (and other places for that matter..) are running businesses, and have little or no interest in you, beyond what you can get for them in drumming up business for their schools. During the hiring and interview process, they (the school owners) will come across as very friendly and concerned, but in most cases, once you have signed on the dotted line, business is first and foremost, and your job will be to keep students happy and bring in new ones. If you `rock the boat` in any way, then the school will not respond with any loyalty to your services, but will simply look at you from a financial standpoint - whether you are an asset or a liability to the Institution.

Many tourists who go to Turkey claim that Turks are among the friendliest people in the world. That may be true when you go there as a tourist. But countless teachers who stay in Turkey long term, have found, to their chagrin, that Turks are basically not all that friendly when you deal with them on a daily basis over a long period of time. You will be an `honorary yabanci` in most cases...and from a social point of view, will be of little interest.

Many foreign female teachers find Turkish men to be crude and interested in only `you know what.` Further, Turkish men (in sizeable proportions) wrongly assume that most foreign female ESL teachers have easy morals and are willing to jump into bed at the drop of a hat. When they (the Turks) find this not to be the case, some of the female teachers are harrassed, and many are dismissed or encouraged to leave their jobs.

Living in Turkey over a long period of time can indeed be mind numbing, because the culture is essentially mundane and boring. A fresh challenge might indeed be on the cards for you.

Best wishes from Montreal, Canada.....where minorities will soon become the majority, as in Toronto.

[yaramaz]

Oh dear, here we go again.

Ghost, ghost, ghost... I was just starting to value your opinion and now you come back with more of your all-knowing wisdom about Turkey.

[stillnosheep]

Never having worked in Turkey, I can only report that a

[johnslat]

Dear stillnosheep,
Whoa, pretty upbeat there. Let's watch it, huh? You DO have a reputation
( sarcastic, sardonic, ironic, trenchant, semi-cynical) to uphold.
Regards,
John

[stillnosheep]

sorry johnslut, forgot. won't happen again, promise
fancy coming on over to forum: Spain and giving SEndrigo a spanking?

[johnslat]

Dear stillnosheep,
What are you doing - mustering the troops for an assault against SEndrigo? I noticed that you'd invited Ludwig to do the same on the General Forum.
Do you have delusions of playing the Lee Marvin part in

"The Dirty Dozen"?

Regards,
John
P.S. And please don't reply that you prefer "The Magnificent Seven" or that granddaddy of them all, "The Seven Samuri".

[yaramaz]

Sheep, y'all bleated:

[Otterman Ollie]

Hi

Sorry , the last post could be this one instead. Kurdish boyfriends eh T!Brave girl,not many i know will confess to that but im sure hes a nice lad .Met the family yet ? No!! Thought not ,you,ll learn one day . Not met many of them that did not deserve their rather poor rep,no doubt yours is different ,gonna marry him ?
Unlike ghost i really like this place ,yes kurds and all. Like quite a few others i intend to stay a while longer if i can survive the summer .i do meet people here who are well and truly entrenched here they have homes and that ,one day i hope to join that lucky crowd .
The weather ,food,music,people,atmosphere,ok they dont know how to party very well but at least we can have fun teaching them . Is this thread for real? Definitely my last post .

[justme]

I agree with you, it is time for a holiday!

1) The Kurds: A lot of my students in Istanbul are pretty hateful towards Kurds, partly because of the PKK bombings not all that long ago, partly just plain racism and classism. Most Turks I've talked to insist that Kurdish isn't a real language (!) and will accept no evidence to the contrary. I think they're just pissed off that the Kurds don't bow down and accept the almighty greatness of our good father Ataturk-- yeah, he managed to unite all these different ethnic/linguistic groups and have them believe they are pure Turk, but the Kurds just won't buy it, those sillies. So even though the Kurds are one of the largest ethnic groups in the world that don't have a homeland, general belief is that they should just get over themselves and accept that they're Turkish, or Iraqi, or Iranian, or whatever... Plus, Kurds are dark-skinned, which is not looked upon kindly...

At least in Istanbul, classism plays a big role too-- it's comparable to Latinos in the States, where 1000's of them flood the city daily looking fo work, they do all the dirty jobs, many have little more than a 6th grade education (if that), and many of them don't speak Turkish (and of course the Kurdish accent is regarded as ugly and low-class). And despite all the wonderful aspects of Turkish culture, it is classist. Or perhaps I should describe it as class-bound or class conscious. Anyway, one of the upshots is that one doesn't date outside of one's social class, and I think it's considered even worse when women date someone 'lower' than themselves (economic status seems to have little to do with how Kurds are considered class-wise). This goes for Turkish women as well as foreign-- one of my Turkish ex-co-workers was having more than a few problems from friends and family for dating a half-Kurdish man, even though their social status was about the same. I've taken bok from students just for being too friendly with Kurdish workers in the school, not talking down to them as I should, and worrying about them being bored or not making enough money or whatever.

I say ignore it. If you're in love and considering marriage then bravo and congratulations, and double that congratulations if his family accepts you. A foreigner's life here can be so much better if you're part of a social and family network, and everyone else can just live iwth it or they're not worth dealing with. You didn't mention if your fiance is a student, but Turkish students get pissy and jealous of the Kurdish students because Kurds who know Kurdish have an easier time learning English-- Kurdish is Indo-European, and people who are bilingual are cleverer about picking up new languages. Some Turks, especially the snotty rich ones, just can't stand it when their underclass is more successful at something, and I've dealt with this problem many times in my classes.

2) As to school managers, my defense of the Kurds has gone on long enough, but I agree with ghost about many school (read: dershane)managers. Your interest may be good education, making solid well-planned lessons, and training students to be enthusiastic and self-motivated, but a dershane's goal is to make money, and they will feed everybody a lot of BS to do so. On the other hand, some managers have the same goals at heart as you do, but they're answering to some owner who doesn't know beans about education, so there's that dynamic, and they can't say anything bad about their superiors. Additionally, Turks really hate giving bad news (which is why they'll give you directions even if they don't know where a place is, because it's bad news to tell you they don't know). The trick here is to read between the lines. Don't regard it as malicious, like they're lying exactly, but rather that they're working within a cutural and managerial dynamic that prevents them from saying what's 'true' or speaking against their bosses. You just have to know the situation well, and understand what they mean rather than what they say. Turks can do it, and with a little savvy we can learn. Not that I'm an expert at this by any means-- I'm altogether too trusting and I've been burned as a result, but I just find it's easier to get along in life by remembering that they aren't deliberately trying to be bad to us or make us feel stupid, they're just doing what they think is right.

However when the foreign managers lie like this I think it's unforgiveable.

Time to step down from my soapbox...

[ghost]

`Justme` talks about `Kurds who don`t speak Turkish` and one finds the statement surprising, because one has never met a Kurd who did not speak Turkish....and indeed, as Justme states, Kurds seem to have a special affinity and talent for learning second or more languages....which would make it all the more surprising....

The Kurds one meets in cities like Istanbul, Antalya, Izmir etc...seem to be friendly, etc...but one recalls meeting a Kurdish cafe worker in Antalya last summer and the Kurdish worker stating that if a foreigner ever so much as touched a Kurdish girl...he (the foreigner) would have his body lynched by a mob. Meaning....they are very protective of their own...but do not, at the same time, hesitate to interact with foreigners in Turkey.

The aim of the previous post was not to diss the Turkish nation, but merely to comment on what one has seen to be the case with a sizeable proportion of foreign teachers.

In the Cities one lived in (Antalya, Ankara, Eskisehir) in most cases one saw teachers go back to their flats and watch Digiturk, drink beer, and partake of other substances some legal...others not...

Most of these teachers complained about the monotony of living in Turkey, and about the boring aspect of life. However, they stayed, because in many cases the only options on the home front would be burger flipping at minimum wage.

Yaramaz has found her niche in Kayseri, and that is good, but one cannot hide the fact that many teachers have not, and they are essentially `passing time` time there (in Turkey) without really advancing on an intellectual or career level. Let`s face it...teaching Elementary English month after month, year after year, can make one complacent, lazy and ultimately stagnant....fresh challenges are needed...but one has to run after them.

Yaramaz is also correct in stating that there are lousy employers everywhere..Canada, Britain, etc....but the thing which annoys many teachers in Turkey is that their employers and other Turkish teachers will often hide issues from them, and then go complain about them (the Yabanci teachers) behind their backs...and believe it...gossip seems to be a cultural favourite in Turkey.

It is really a matter of luck on where you land in Turkey...and the experiences can be positive or negative. However, it is only right for prospective teachers who intend on coming to Turkey, to know both sides of the story. Without this, it would be a disservice to those incoming teachers who are having a disappointing time like Theresa.

[vre]

At the end of the day, we are all foreigners and will always be foreigners in Turkish eyes. Like it or not, it is true. Ive got friends who are fluent in Turkish, having lived here for 10-18 years, have children (in effect Turks) and Turkish spouses. But they are still foreigners in most Turks' eyes. It's different in most Western countries, not all though. The culture is so tight here. But as long as you are selective and have some good friends and avoid the obvious nobs, then you can be quite happily foreign here. it does depend where you are though, and paranoia can set in. I know because I experienced that in a so- called modern European country not far from here!

[Mike_2003]

Vre has hit the hammer firmly on the head. It's one of the reasons I'm considering moving. I am not experiencing any overt racism or paranoia, and I'm not at all unhappy with my lot here. Although I really enjoy my work, my students, the city in all its glory, I'm getting a little fed up of always being "the foreigner". Some may like the rock star status, and fair play to them, but it's not really me.

Whilst travelling in Romania last year I noticed how relaxed I was. When I went into shops I was treated just like another person, no sudden silences or whispered comments with inserted sniggers, and no OTT friendliness and hospitality, the novelty of which wore off long ago. I was just another customer, nothing special, except I couldn't speak the language. It was quite eye-opening after five years of heads turning and jaws dropping. It would be nice to leave the house for once without feeling that I'm preparing to go on stage.

I don't know how things will turn out, maybe for the better or maybe for the worse, I may even regret moving terribly, but I can't get out of my head how lovely it would be if someone invited "Mike the person" to dinner instead of "Mayk the yabanci".

Mike