Job Discussion Forums

[Ludwig]

The Ministry of Education has reprimanded some 11 universities and 15 colleges (and their FTs) for having substandard programmes and educational standards (South China Morning Post, Thursday, May 27, 2004, p. (A)6).

Apparently some of the 'teachers' involved could not distinguish between nouns and verbs in a given text when asked (!) and were, in many cases, vastly less qualified than both their students and than was claimed on their application and visa-related paperwork.

[anthyp]

Yes, Ludwig, the quality of FEs in China varies considerably and too many simply wouldn't be able to teach anywhere else. The schools are just as much to blame (for hiring such individuals) as they themselves.

[Teacher Lindsay]

Ludwig

Your subject headline:-

[windsorman1972]

Boy Wonder strikes again.

Please pass the aspirin and the Preparation-H.

Thanks...

[stavrogin2001]

Might you name these schools so that they might see the light of day. Especially since the SCMP is a pay site that us po'folk can't afford.

[Roger]

Please, Ludwig,
we can all read the SCMP by ourselves and don't need someone to point us to interesting items in that rag. On the other hand, the SCMP writes ever more harmless stuff that comes out strait from Xinhua. Who needs the SCMP anymore?

But as for those universities and FT's involved: I feel we FT's should be hired by schools that train their own staff better so that we can give all manner of pertinent feedfback to our students. I find, however, most of them don't know "infitive" or "article", and they surely have never done analysing of English texts. That's the main problem.

If I give my students an assignment, they will or won't do it. I can get them to do things only during the lessons, not after because they are like babies that need a nanny to demonstrate their every action.

Once I have marked their papers, I have to make sure they are correcting their mistakes - again, this can only be ensured if they do it during a lesson.

Last Wednesday, I went to ask about my exams; the answer was: "You can schedule your exams as you deem fit!" Can you believe this? But this is the NORM here! So, today I scheduled the first writing exams for next week - after asking my students about how busy they would be at the end of June. All said they would have NO time in 5 weeks' time... because Chinese teachers have already scheduled their exams.
How important is my exam? Dunno! I make it as important as possible, but I suspect my university places much more value on the exams held by CHINESE teachers.

Make your own inferences!

[garbotara]

I know from the school I work at that the Chinese teachers really do not teach grammar.I had fifth graders who could hardly speak a work of English let alone write a sentence.I now have sixth graders who can barely write. The grammar mistakes are surprising. I wanted to give those teachers more credit, but I just can not.
I only see my students twice a week.I believe this is the case at a lot of school. So it is passing the buck again. The Chinese teachers see the students more often,but the foreign teacher gets blamed for everything.

[kev7161]

You think your 5th and 6th graders are bad? My SENIOR students can barely string together a coherent sentence. And forget proper punctuation and capitalization. I see their tests they take in their other English classes and it is basically a multiple choice test. Today, on one part of their test I gave them, the instructions said to CIRCLE the correct answer. I have to give them credit as several tried to rewrite the sentence with their choice. But, makes me think they didn't read the instructions or didn't understand what they meant (never mind that we just did the EXACT same exercise in their workbooks not three days ago!).

I suggested to my Chinese counterpart that we should hold an essay-writing competition and he said it was probably a bad idea as most of the students don't like to write. (my understanding - - CAN'T write!) Let's see, they've been force-fed English for six years now and a majority can't write, don't understand much of what they read, can't (or won't) speak the language, and act like small kids in the classroom. Is this Chinese education at its worst or do most other posters experience these same problems (however, I will say many of my students have improved percentages over last semester - - many are still failing, granted, but failing with higher scores!)???

[lagerlout2006]

Radio Free Wittgenstein...An update from the free world...

[lagerlout2006]

To those replying isn't Wittgenstein talking about the Foreign teachers?

If it's the Chinese English teachers what's the point> No news flash...Local teachers here cannot even introduce themselves in English...They are nowhere near the level of the better students in middle and high school...At least at this ....er.....Acadamy.

[Klamm]

Whoever posted this: Please list the schools here.

Or is this all smoke and no fire?

[ilunga]

This is a great establishment Lagerlout

I had a senior 2 class last year where only three students out of 25 could even manage a sentence.
After 4 months I was introduced to their 'English' teacher. She'd sat at our table a few times before at lunch. I didn't even realise she could speak English as she would sit there seemingly oblivious to the conversation going on around her.

There's some good Chinese English teachers but the majority just aren't up to the job. It's not all their fault as the lack of resources and code of discipline are two major problems they have to deal with.

[struelle]

If we take a step back from the frustrations of teaching Chinese to learn a new language, we can find a very important clue. While continuously working through this problem in my mind, recently I've come across a new angle to it:

The students haven't learned how to learn!! In other words, it's a meta-issue. I'm thoroughly convinced that meta-cognitive techniques lie at the heart of learning a 2nd language, and Chinese students need to learn these. But who is teaching them these skills?

Teachers can use a large variety of methods and approaches to English and don't have to agree on one single path. Even the Chinese teachers, arguably, have some strong points to their lessons. But all of these methods, even English itself, are secondary to the main task, that is, how to teach students to learn.

On this note, I run lots of meta-lessons that teach cognitive skills and also "trick" students into learning English without teaching them explicitly. As any experienced teacher here would know, if you walk into a class and say, "Today we will learn oral English", the students will have tuned out before you begin the lesson.

An example is the latest series of classes on class rules and regulations to senior students. We elicit a bunch of school rules already in place and then students talk about what happens if they break them. In a prison camp school like this one, rules are a total part of their lives, so they can't help but think about them. Pretty soon, they forget they're speaking English. If a class is goofing off, I call them on it while using the rules they elicited to scold them!

Once a student started saying 'f__' and 's__' in my class, then a large group turned on him in chorus and said, "No foul language!" (This was also on the board)

Then and only then, do I go over the language focus for the lesson, that is how to make required and prohibited commands.

Until students learn how to learn, progress in a 2nd language is going to be minimal. This is a skill that the Chinese teachers need to be teaching far more than they are now.

Steve

[stavrogin2001]

I think everyone here has hit on some very core issues. I think the thing that hurts me the most is that to the average school, it really doesn't matter that we are even having these conversations because they are not in the least bit interested in what we have to say about teaching, teaching methodology, or anything slightly pedogogical.

I do not know what you all have experienced out there, but my current job treats me as if Iam a cow only to be herded where they want me to go. If I ask questions or bring up some points though, they act as if I do not exist. And mind you this is a state run university.

I think that any changes we can make with our students has to be by ourselves. I do not feel any support from the Chinese staff at my school. In fact they will not even talk to me.

I think these reasons are why I would like to look at the list, but it is still forthcoming.......


Oooh the suspense......

[Ludwig]

'Anthyp', yes, quite.

''Teacher' Lindsay', although it is obviously beyond you, it is possible to be both reprimanded and blacklisted (as evinced by the very report I cite). Unlike you, I do not "think further information is warranted". I quite clearly cite my 'hard' source (as hinted at by the very referencing style employed, date, page number, etc.). Perhaps it is yourself that suffers from a reading comprehension problem.

'Windsorman1972', on behalf of the forum, I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for yet another thoughtful, perceptive, and constructive post. We are very fortunate indeed to have you around. Your posts are, after all, so intellectually stimulating.

'Stavrogin2001' and 'Klamm', I am afraid the source cited does not list or name the establishments concerned. Rest assured that if they had, I would I have enumerated them for you.

'Roger', you write (read, 'claim') that "we can all read the SCMP by ourselves" (along with some highly subjective comments that I shall not repeat). Leaving aside who, exactly, is meant by "we", it is somewhat challenging to say the very least to tally this comment with the words of, for example, 'Stavrogin2001', who writes that "the SCMP is a pay site that us po'folk can't afford".

As regards your point concerning training, however, yes, I agree.

'Lagerlout2006', I am not quite sure what gave rise to your allusion to the late and great Wittgenstein. What Wittgenstein texts, exactly, have you perused? Could it be perhaps his famed Blue and Brown Books (published in the form of notes)? If so, what is your favourite proposition? Do you even know what a Wittgensteinian proposition is? I doubt it. Or is it, perhaps, the off-shoot of the Blue and Brown Books - PI - that you have read? Do you even know for what PI stands? Or, maybe, it was his seminal Tractus Logicus Philosophicus in which Truth Tables were introduced that you have studied. If so, perhaps you could enlighten the forum as to your opinion as to whether or not Wittgenstein really was, as is often claimed, somewhat vatic in style, and whether or not his location whilst completing TLP overly influenced his method. Do you even begin to claim to know where he was located when finishing off that work?

'Struelle', yes, good point. A few years ago I attended a seminar at a university at which I have previously studied (Durham, UK) held by a famous linguist working within L2 learning, entitled 'From LAD to MAD', with 'MAD' standing for 'Meta Acquisition Device'. (PM me for further details if you are interested in the (now quite famous) paper that stems from that session).