Job Discussion Forums

[vikeologist]

This is based on something one of our recent arrivals said on another topic.

I don't think they are.

I don't think recruiters control enough of the potential job market for this to be true. I appreciate that some Universities recruit through recruiters, and if we want to work in a smallish city with 2 universities, and they both use them, then we may be in a difficult position. Then again, there's nothing stopping us still applying directly.

I appreciate that almost every job that's advertised is usually either for language mills (which often have their own recruitment arms) or via recruiters. That doesn't change the fact that the way to apply for universities is to send your CV and full details to all the ones you're interested in.

A few months ago I found a new job (for the first time in 4 years). I applied to quite a few universities (20-30) and only received replies from 2 or 3. It did take a long time to find the contact details for them, and I'm sure lots of my applications were lost in the internet ether.

Probably the reason I didn't get many replies though is because I started early (start of October), when very few unis would know their needs for March. Had I got through the first hundred or so applications and not got a job I wanted, I might have had to reapply to them all again.

I appreciate it's tough and time consuming, and recruiters are fast and easy. There is almost no chance of getting a good job through them, and on those occasions when we do get good jobs through recruiters, it's a fluke.

So, these are my thoughts, admittedly based around Unis. I'd welcome yours. Are recruiters a necessary evil?

[toteach]

While I've had luck finding jobs both ways, I always opt for recruiters when I have rather specific requirements, such as an earlier-than-normal departure. Why not let them do the work?

[Lack]

They can be useful but are not strictly needed, no. And remember, they work for the schools. (People tend to be loyal towards those paying them after all.)

Just be cautious, as you should be with anything and I think using them is fine.

[Scrabble King]

Honest recruiters can save a lot of time. But I won't deal with any of them who won't give me their real name and a copy of their business license.

If I catch them in just one lie they are history.

[vikeologist]

[Bud Powell]

Unless one can visit the school and speak directly to its HR person, he cannot be sure that he isn't negotiating with an agent. I have contacted schools directly via school email that I found on its website. Later, I was contacted by someone who represented herself as someone who was employed by the school and did the hiring. After the obligatory skype/phone interview, I was handed off to someone else a few days later only to find that the first person to whom I spoke was a recruiter.

I don't intend to burst too many bubbles, but this is pretty much the norm (in my experience, anyway).

I came very close to accepting a position after having spoken (by phone from the U.S.) with the school's HR rep only to be told to wait for a phone call. I still had questions, so I did a little more research, only to find that someone else's recent experience didn't match what I had been told by the HR rep. It wasn't anything consequential. It was a conflict of realities. The supposed HR rep said one thing about living accommodations and someone who taught there said something different. In addition, the person who worked there had never heard of the HR rep.

When I received the phone call that I was told to wait for, I asked if the person who represented herself as the HR rep worked for the school. I was told yes. When I asked if I could meet her face-to-face when I arrived, i was told "probably not".

I didn't turn down the position because of what I learned about the school; I found a more appealing position through someone who identified herself as a recruiter.

My experience with people who rail against recruiters the loudest have the least experience with them, or they had one bad experience with a pariah like FZ.

If one is passive in his job search and posts a resume that absolutely anyone can see, then he'll get the worst recruiters. That's why it's best to work with a recruiter that pays for access to a website that allows him/her to view your resume. Ideally, (if one decides to use a recruiter) it's best to register with a website that lists jobs. Then you can see the name of the recruiter and/or the collective that she belongs to. If you see the same name on 10-20 different jobs, and they're all high -paying jobs at reputable schools, you have a good chance at getting a reputable recruiter.

I've gotten jobs through abroadchina.org. The email is almost always that of the school that I'm interested in. Nine-out-of-ten times, I find out that it's a recruiter. I have never gotten burned. Those recruiters pay to advertise there. Another source is ESLJOBS.com. You always know when you are dealing with a recruiter. One recruiter has gotten me three very good jobs with well-above average accommodations and pay above standard advertised public college pay.

That said, the IDEAL situation really is to visit the school and talk to the teachers and the owner (if he speaks English and it's a business, not a public school). Even then, you can't be sure if you are being lied to. The first thing you need to do is to find out if the outfit can employ foreigners. Talk to an FT there and ask to see his Z visa. If he has no Z visa and tells you that the school "is working on it" carefully consider the possibilities before you accept that job. I almost got sucked into such a situation when my other job went DEEP south. The school by whom I was employed was willing to release me from my contract (because it broke the conditions of my employment quite suddenly), but had I accepted the other job, the vindictive FAO at the public school would have reported me. One of my CT friends at the university told me so.

But again, the ideal situation is to deal directly with the school. Unless you can travel to the school and speak directly with the FAO/owner, you really don't know with whom you are dealing.

One caveat about seeking employment at a school in your city is the possibility that the FAO/owner will ask around about you. Just one jerk can blow your chances for employment there. I've seen it happen (not to me, but someone else that I recommended). The FAO/owner may not ask your present employer about you, but you can be sure that he'll ask his own FTs about you.

[Markness]

I think they are a necessary evil for someone who's first coming to China and/or if you find yourself switching cities often. Otherwise, if you're happy somewhere, what's stopping one from going and knocking on some doors/handing out resumes? You get a sense of the environment when you walk in, and you get your full pay. No recruiter taking a chunk of the pie. Also, I find that the best jobs I've gotten have been through friends/word of mouth. Once you're in China, I see no reason for using them anymore.

edited for spelling... doh!

[paul1984]

Ideally, the idea of recruiters sounds good. They help teachers navigate different schools due to language barriers, help teachers with visa documents, ect.

Putting recruiting into practice is where things start to be hit or miss though...at least according to these forums.

So a necessary evil for newbies then (maybe?). At least for me!

[roadwalker]