Job Discussion Forums

[esl_prof]

Two days ago in my comp class, a student asked me why we say "six more weeks of winter" instead of "six weeks more of winter." My short answer (we were on a tangent as it was anyway) was: It has to do with the rules pertaining to order of adjectives. Numbers always come first.

After pondering the question a bit more after class, I've looked this up in a few different books and, while it's clear that I'm right about numbers coming first, I'm stumped when it comes to how we categorize the adjective "more." Does it fall into the category of size like thin, fat, big, or small? Or am I missing something here?

For those who haven't taught this in awhile and don't keep your grammar books next to the computer , here's a list of common categories used when ordering adjectives.

http://www.esolcourses.com/content/exercises/grammar/adjectives/adjectiveorder/adjectiveorder.html

[Sashadroogie]

Is more an adjective? Not a quantifier?... Drat!

[esl_prof]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/more?s=t

More can actually be lots of things, depending on context. If it can be used as a quantifier, somebody should tip off the folks at dictionary.com (and maybe Wikipedia too.)

Though, it appears that some folks in the ESL profession would concur with you that more is, in fact, a quantifier, Comrade.

https://www.tesol-direct.com/guide-to-english-grammar/quantifiers

So assuming it is, what rule dictates that we say "six more weeks of winter" instead of "six weeks more of winter?"

[Sashadroogie]

I think this is clearly a question for a furry rodent to gnaw his way through : )

As soon as he posts his thesis, I'll do my best to provide an antithesis. Then you can form a synthesis. Who could ask for anything...more?

[esl_prof]

Of course, a little bit of Hegelian method. That should help me find a solution.

[Sashadroogie]

The Socratic questions are nudging us along nicely, though. Don't you think?

[esl_prof]

You'll hear no complaints about Socrates from me.

[roadwalker]

I don't hear 'six weeks more of winter' as necessarily wrong but I think that changes more to a noun. I usually would say 'six more weeks of winter,' and I agree that it's an adjective as opposed to a quantifier. We could have an idea in mind about the quantity of 'some' or 'many' standing alone (and depending on the context), but not for 'more'.

[artemisia]

I think the use of ‘more’ is a quantifying (post)determiner in the sentence: There are six more weeks of winter. Determiners go before the noun in pre, central or post order. Whether or not ‘more’ can also be classed as an adjective, I think it’s the rule governing determiners that applies here.

Sequences of determiners (p.156/7, Graeme Kennedy):
https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=gQGtAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA157&dq=sequences+of+determiners&hl=en&sa=X&ei=EuLVVMelJJC68gWN44H4Ag&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=sequences%20of%20determiners&f=false

Determiners
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/internet-grammar/determin/ex3.htm (Scroll up – there are 3 pages)

Are adjectives also determiners?
Most determiners have been traditionally classed along with adjectives, and this still occurs: for example, demonstrative and possessive determiners are sometimes described as demonstrative adjectives and possessive adjectives respectively. However, modern theorists of grammar prefer to distinguish determiners as a separate word class from adjectives, which are simple modifiers of nouns, expressing attributes of the thing referred to.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determiner

[esl_prof]

[esl_prof]

[artemisia]

Under the UCL link (p. 3), it states that two postdeterminers can be placed together, so ‘six’ and ‘more’ could be classed as postdeterminers: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/internet-grammar/determin/ex3.htm

I've also seen other references to two postdeterminers occurring together. However, it’s a bit odd to talk about two postdeterminers in one sentence when there’s no central one. Determiners can change categories, but I've checked a few different references and am not 100% sure if cardinal numbers can also function as central determiners.

Back to order of adjectives: perhaps if 'more' is a quantifier of the number, then it must be placed directly after it. In no.2 below, it’s not possible to put ‘more’ anywhere other than directly after the number and before the noun:
1. I’d like five (green) apples.
2. I’d like five more (green) apples.

It’s difficult with words that potentially come under several word classes, but probably the above is the easiest explanation for students. Adding adjectives makes this clearer.

["There are six more icy-cold weeks of winter" vs "There are six icy-cold weeks more of winter"].

http://learnenglish.britishcouncil.org/en/english-grammar/determiners-and-quantifiers/quantifiers

[Sashadroogie]

How is 'more' functioning is the example sentence?

[esl_prof]

[esl_prof]