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Making it Work while Teaching on a University Salary
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nomad soul



Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world

PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Emp1 wrote:
If you want 'professionalism', then you have to pay for it. That's the other side of the deal. Professionals expect things like good salaries, career development, pension planning, employee rights...good luck finding those in China outside of an international school.

I would certainly rather be the guy with a 'bad work attitude' who owns a house and a car, can go on nice holidays, provide his family a good life, and look forward to a comfortable future after finishing his working life, than an FT who gives 100% to his classes but lives his life poor, somehow convincing himself 6000rmb a month is decent living and no future planning is needed. That FT is an absolute idiot..


That's a major, run-on sentence. Anyway, what about accountability to those paying your salary?
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buravirgil



Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China

PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although my opinion is Emp1 is presenting a false dilemma, their advocacy of juggling a university job with weekend language school classes (or late-afternoon high school classes) and private tutoring sessions is (despite it being illegal, technically) common among teachers who have worked in China for a long time.

Arguing what defines professionalism only in terms of remuneration seems like an argument spoiling for a "labor rights" framing.
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Emp1



Joined: 25 Mar 2015
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Non Sequitur wrote:
Professionalism comes from within.
A skilled surgeon donating his time in the 3rd world, doesn't do shitty work cos he's not getting paid.


The surgeon has a well paid job back home so making additional cash isn't really as big a priority for him. For the FT, it's absolutely vital...apples and oranges.

roadwalker wrote:
I blame the Chinese for my own mercenary attitude! I'm a total victim here, brought here against my will, but I wouldn't expect you professional types to understand. The Chinese laugh at you, all of them!


A better way to help you understand would be to tell you to observe how the Chinese act, not what they say. They'll be perfectly nice to you to your face. But do Chinese teachers prepare quality lessons? Do they care about the students? Or are they more interested in making money on the side through private lessons? How someone acts is a much better representation of the kind of behavior they identify with and approve of than what they say.

Son of Bud Powell wrote:
Empt1:

I meant for you to explain how the following sentences relate:

I bank 20,000RMB a month in this country. I'm actually securing my financial future. Yes, it means sacrificing lesson quality, but you don't make an omelette without cracking some eggs.


The idea is that in order to do anything worthwhile, there are sacrifices that need to be made. In this case, the 'financial future' is the 'omelette' (i.e. the 'goal') and the 'lesson quality' is the eggs (the 'sacrifice'). Because just as it's impossible to make an omelette without breaking eggs, it's impossible to teach as many classes as you need to in order to bank serious money, while also putting 100% into all those classes.

Son of Bud Powell wrote:

Also, explain why you don't have a professional attitude because you're not paid a professional wage. Being able to bank twenty grand a month indicates that you're getting a professional wage. Or do you mean that you have a lot of private students over whom you overcharge and ride roughshod. That sort of thing doesn't last very long for two glaring reasons: the work runs out when mom and dad figure out that the FT is a slacker and 2) for you to pull in that kind of money while engaged in so many activities would indicate that you don't sleep.


My university doesn't pay me a professional wage. I bank the money I do because of lessons outside the uni. For the lessons outside the uni, I will ensure lesson quality is at least passable, relative to what other teachers are providing, since you can be let go very easily by your part time employer. As for not sleeping, my uni schedule is over 4 days, and for 2 of those evenings I work in a language centre, and I work 1 morning/1 afternoon in a high school. I then work weekends at the language centre. So I have 1 day off a week although it's only for the 8 months of the year when the uni actually has classes. If I actually did proper work for my uni I'd be burned out pretty quick. As it is though, because I just spend the time watching movies, I don't suffer energy drain. That means teaching in evenings and weekends is tolerable.

nomad soul wrote:
That's a major, run-on sentence. Anyway, what about accountability to those paying your salary?


What about it? That salary is not enough to save and live well on, so quality in that job gets dispensed with in favour of those who do provide better than peanut wages. I make no apologies for putting my needs above those of any Chinese employer, or indeed, any employer anywhere in the world. I am number 1, family is number 2, employer is a very very distant number 3.
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nomad soul



Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world

PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Emp1 wrote:
nomad soul wrote:
What about accountability to those paying your salary?

What about it? That salary is not enough to save and live well on, so quality in that job gets dispensed with in favour of those who do provide better than peanut wages. I make no apologies for putting my needs above those of any Chinese employer, or indeed, any employer anywhere in the world. I am number 1, family is number 2, employer is a very very distant number 3.

Accountability in the form of student evaluations, classroom observations, teaching/grading reports, etc. as evidence that you're actually making an effort to teach and that the students are learning. By your account, it seems your employer doesn't require anything from the teachers, other than that they show up to class.

By the way, I doubt it would sit well with you if your own children were being "taught" by instructors with a similar apathy for their students' learning.

Why are you even in China if it's so low paying? Anyway, I hope you're just trolling.
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Emp1



Joined: 25 Mar 2015
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nomad soul wrote:
Emp1 wrote:
nomad soul wrote:
What about accountability to those paying your salary?

What about it? That salary is not enough to save and live well on, so quality in that job gets dispensed with in favour of those who do provide better than peanut wages. I make no apologies for putting my needs above those of any Chinese employer, or indeed, any employer anywhere in the world. I am number 1, family is number 2, employer is a very very distant number 3.

Accountability in the form of student evaluations, classroom observations, teaching/grading reports, etc. as evidence that you're actually making an effort to teach and that the students are learning. By your account, it seems your employer doesn't require anything from the teachers, other than that they show up to class.

By the way, I doubt it would sit well with you if your own children were being "taught" by instructors with a similar apathy for their students' learning.

Why are you even in China if it's so low paying? Anyway, I hope you're just trolling.


I score fine in the student evaluation since they just love sitting there and doing nothing while being allowed to play on their iphones. There's no classroom observation or anything else like that.

You're right that I wouldn't want my own children to be taught by teachers who didn't care. However, I'm realistic enough to know you're not getting quality teaching if you don't pay quality wages, it's the same as if you go for the cheap option anywhere in life, quality will usually take a hit as a result.

China as a whole is not low paying...I can save more here than I can back home, for sure (if I went back home, I'd probably be working minimum wage jobs until I got a few years of experience). But the *more* classes you teach the *more* you can save. I save $3,000 a month pretty consistently these days. But if I gave 100% in the classroom I'd have to teach less classes, maybe only saving $1,500 a month. No surprise I'm picking the $3,000 option. I certainly don't want to live life poor, I like staying in nice hotels, saving for my future, and putting money towards buying a house. That's more important by far than delivering quality education for students. The Chinese will be the first to agree...go ask the owner of your local training centre if he's more concerned about the money or providing good english lessons...
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buravirgil



Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China

PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would Emp1 concede a teacher is a professional though they do not prioritize earning as much money as possible, but derive a satisfaction from delivering engaging and productive lessons?
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Son of Bud Powell



Joined: 04 Mar 2015
Posts: 179
Location: Since 2003

PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Emp1 wrote:
nomad soul wrote:
Emp1 wrote:
nomad soul wrote:
What about accountability to those paying your salary?

What about it? That salary is not enough to save and live well on, so quality in that job gets dispensed with in favour of those who do provide better than peanut wages. I make no apologies for putting my needs above those of any Chinese employer, or indeed, any employer anywhere in the world. I am number 1, family is number 2, employer is a very very distant number 3.

Accountability in the form of student evaluations, classroom observations, teaching/grading reports, etc. as evidence that you're actually making an effort to teach and that the students are learning. By your account, it seems your employer doesn't require anything from the teachers, other than that they show up to class.

By the way, I doubt it would sit well with you if your own children were being "taught" by instructors with a similar apathy for their students' learning.

Why are you even in China if it's so low paying? Anyway, I hope you're just trolling.


I score fine in the student evaluation since they just love sitting there and doing nothing while being allowed to play on their iphones. There's no classroom observation or anything else like that.

You're right that I wouldn't want my own children to be taught by teachers who didn't care. However, I'm realistic enough to know you're not getting quality teaching if you don't pay quality wages, it's the same as if you go for the cheap option anywhere in life, quality will usually take a hit as a result.

China as a whole is not low paying...I can save more here than I can back home, for sure (if I went back home, I'd probably be working minimum wage jobs until I got a few years of experience). But the *more* classes you teach the *more* you can save. I save $3,000 a month pretty consistently these days. But if I gave 100% in the classroom I'd have to teach less classes, maybe only saving $1,500 a month. No surprise I'm picking the $3,000 option. I certainly don't want to live life poor, I like staying in nice hotels, saving for my future, and putting money towards buying a house. That's more important by far than delivering quality education for students. The Chinese will be the first to agree...go ask the owner of your local training centre if he's more concerned about the money or providing good english lessons...


So you show your thanks for the opportunity to live a better life in China by being a slacker?

I'm out of this one. This thread is becoming sickening. I truly hope that you are a troll.

Really.
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7969



Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong

PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Son of Bud Powell wrote:
Emp1 wrote:
nomad soul wrote:
Emp1 wrote:
nomad soul wrote:
What about accountability to those paying your salary?

What about it? That salary is not enough to save and live well on, so quality in that job gets dispensed with in favour of those who do provide better than peanut wages. I make no apologies for putting my needs above those of any Chinese employer, or indeed, any employer anywhere in the world. I am number 1, family is number 2, employer is a very very distant number 3.

Accountability in the form of student evaluations, classroom observations, teaching/grading reports, etc. as evidence that you're actually making an effort to teach and that the students are learning. By your account, it seems your employer doesn't require anything from the teachers, other than that they show up to class.

By the way, I doubt it would sit well with you if your own children were being "taught" by instructors with a similar apathy for their students' learning.

Why are you even in China if it's so low paying? Anyway, I hope you're just trolling.

I score fine in the student evaluation since they just love sitting there and doing nothing while being allowed to play on their iphones. There's no classroom observation or anything else like that.

You're right that I wouldn't want my own children to be taught by teachers who didn't care. However, I'm realistic enough to know you're not getting quality teaching if you don't pay quality wages, it's the same as if you go for the cheap option anywhere in life, quality will usually take a hit as a result.

China as a whole is not low paying...I can save more here than I can back home, for sure (if I went back home, I'd probably be working minimum wage jobs until I got a few years of experience). But the *more* classes you teach the *more* you can save. I save $3,000 a month pretty consistently these days. But if I gave 100% in the classroom I'd have to teach less classes, maybe only saving $1,500 a month. No surprise I'm picking the $3,000 option. I certainly don't want to live life poor, I like staying in nice hotels, saving for my future, and putting money towards buying a house. That's more important by far than delivering quality education for students. The Chinese will be the first to agree...go ask the owner of your local training centre if he's more concerned about the money or providing good english lessons...

So you show your thanks for the opportunity to live a better life in China by being a slacker?

I'm out of this one. This thread is becoming sickening. I truly hope that you are a troll.

Really.

Bud, assuming this guy's real he's in for a rude awakening at some point. People with this kind of sh1t attitude are eventually outed for the slackers they are. They can get away with bamboozling their employer for only so long before the game's up. When that happens they usually end up going home to minimum wage jobs where they languish year after year. They typically can't get anything better than that because the only skill they have, BS-ing foreign employers, doesn't fly in that work environment.
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mike w



Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 1071
Location: Beijing building site

PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He will get found out eventually - this type of teaching always does. If the school don't realise it themselves, they soon will when the parents find out. In most schools, and even uni's, the parents are the powerhouse because they have the money, and they like to see something useful for it in their childs education.

The he'll see that when he gets back to the US? he has suddenly got no further than when he left, and the attitude he has now will not work. He won't be so cock-sure and mouthy then.
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Emp1



Joined: 25 Mar 2015
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

buravirgil wrote:
Would Emp1 concede a teacher is a professional though they do not prioritize earning as much money as possible, but derive a satisfaction from delivering engaging and productive lessons?


IMO...professionals have higher level qualifications and teach syllabuses that are internationally accredited (rather than just teaching for an 'exam' the teacher themselves sets). That means teachers with MA TESOL teaching in joint venture western uni programs would be professionals, same with those with PGCE/teachers licence in an international school. I don't see ESL teaching in the Chinese state system as similar to either of those.

ESL teaching is more akin to working as a waiter in a restaurant, in that it requires no qualifications to do, they take anybody who has the correct 'look', and there's no upwards career path to it even if the money isn't actually too bad if you work plenty of hours. It's similar to picking fruit in Australia, or working on a ski resort for a season...it's transitional work that is used to fund a nice lifestyle while abroad, it's not a professional 'career'.

On a personal level I think such teachers who prioritise quality lessons over earning more money are stupid and need a wakeup call. If you're away from your native country, that means you're not paying into the social security system back home. You also likely aren't paying for a mortgage in your home country either, which after 20 or 25 years will have yielded an asset worth many times your annual salary. Both these deficiencies need to be compensated for by earning (and banking) serious money. In the west, not banking much money in your 20's and 30's isn't such a big deal, since you probably have a mortgage, tax contributions for a state pension, and your expectation is that with more experience in your chosen career, your salary will rise, so you can bank a lot in your 40's and 50's to make up the gap. ESL teachers enjoy the opportunity to bank more money in their early earning years than their peers in the west (outside of top end jobs like law and banking), but sacrifise the higher earning potential later in life. That means you need to be saving money right now - and lots of it.

There's also the problem that IMO, this ESL thing won't last forever. Japan used to be a place to rake in the cash. It's not anymore. Then it was Korea, but Korea has clamped down hard on private tutoring and salaries stagnated, so it's not the goldmine it used to be. China is huge, so it will likely take a while for the same thing to happen here, and given the current demand it might seem like lunacy to ever think this gravy train will dry up...but there's a good chance it will in the end. There might be another country to hop to after that, but it's not a guarantee. That's partly why I'm fanatical about earning as much as possible now, so I have some kind of cushion to fall back on if the unthinkable happens.

Just take a look at this: http://www.aviva-pensioncalculator.co.uk/ which gives a good indication of the type of money you need to be saving in order to have a good quality of life once it's time to retire (it's in GBP, but easy enough to convert to USD via google). Put in your age, current fund, and then have a play around to see what sort of monthly contributions you need to make to ensure you have a decent amount of money to live off (keep in mind that inflation, once you retire, will erode the value of your monthly sum, so you need to have X amount of income plus some extra to counter inflation). The sums are pretty frightening, especially if you're just coasting through your 20's, 30's and 40's on 6000rmb a month working 16 hours a week. Also keep in mind you'll no longer get a free apartment after you stop working, so you'll definitely need more than your current monthly income just to account for rental costs, unless you buy a property which will of course cost some additional cash on top.

Son of Bud Powell wrote:
So you show your thanks for the opportunity to live a better life in China by being a slacker?

I'm out of this one. This thread is becoming sickening. I truly hope that you are a troll.


It's a better life *now* but it won't be in the *future* unless I save, save, save.

This isn't some doom prophet telling you all you need to live off 2000rmb a month, work 7 days a week, never enjoy any holidays, and bank every yuan you ever make. But just run the maths...you'll see you need to be banking huge amounts of money, probably far more than you ever imagined. I see people over here who think banking $1,000 USD a month is damn great because it's more than they could do back home...it's not close to enough though because back home you have a social security system and you're paying into a mortgage, along with building a career.

The minimum anyone should be banking, assuming they're relatively young and have no savings right now, is $2,000 USD a month. If you're 40+ but still no savings, make that $3,000 USD a month. If you're 50 or above with no savings you're probably screwed, though I'd implore anyone in that situation to get their MA and go suffer in the gulf countries for 10 years to try and bridge the gap as much as humanly possible.
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Emp1



Joined: 25 Mar 2015
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

7969 wrote:

Bud, assuming this guy's real he's in for a rude awakening at some point. People with this kind of sh1t attitude are eventually outed for the slackers they are. They can get away with bamboozling their employer for only so long before the game's up. When that happens they usually end up going home to minimum wage jobs where they languish year after year. They typically can't get anything better than that because the only skill they have, BS-ing foreign employers, doesn't fly in that work environment.


And guess what...it's not like crappy paid uni jobs are in short supply, just hop on over to the next city and find another one. The only use for these jobs is the apartment they provide and the visa which you can use to stay in the country and work more lucrative jobs.

mike w wrote:
He will get found out eventually - this type of teaching always does. If the school don't realise it themselves, they soon will when the parents find out. In most schools, and even uni's, the parents are the powerhouse because they have the money, and they like to see something useful for it in their childs education.

The he'll see that when he gets back to the US? he has suddenly got no further than when he left, and the attitude he has now will not work. He won't be so cock-sure and mouthy then.


You must be teaching in a different China to me. When do parents ever get involved with FT classes at university? lol. By that point the students themselves don't care either, in their minds they've already made it. They won't rock the boat if you decide to just make classes about chit-chat and movies.

Of course for training centres you need to deliver lessons of a certain quality, although considering the fellow competition the bar for quality is set pretty low. Although I do actually try and make good lessons for the training centre, since if you retain many students you can use that as leverage for a pay rise. It's also easy for your part time employer to get rid of you if you're not good...a uni will rarely do this.
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buravirgil



Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China

PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Emp1 wrote:
buravirgil wrote:
Would Emp1 concede a teacher is a professional though they do not prioritize earning as much money as possible, but derive a satisfaction from delivering engaging and productive lessons?


IMO...professionals have higher level qualifications and teach syllabuses that are internationally accredited (rather than just teaching for an 'exam' the teacher themselves sets). That means teachers with MA TESOL teaching in joint venture western uni programs would be professionals, same with those with PGCE/teachers licence in an international school. I don't see ESL teaching in the Chinese state system as similar to either of those.

ESL teaching is more akin to working as a waiter in a restaurant, in that it requires no qualifications to do, they take anybody who has the correct 'look', and there's no upwards career path to it even if the money isn't actually too bad if you work plenty of hours. It's similar to picking fruit in Australia, or working on a ski resort for a season...it's transitional work that is used to fund a nice lifestyle while abroad, it's not a professional 'career'.

On a personal level I think such teachers who prioritise quality lessons over earning more money are stupid and need a wakeup call. If you're away from your native country, that means you're not paying into the social security system back home. You also likely aren't paying for a mortgage in your home country either, which after 20 or 25 years will have yielded an asset worth many times your annual salary. Both these deficiencies need to be compensated for by earning (and banking) serious money. In the west, not banking much money in your 20's and 30's isn't such a big deal, since you probably have a mortgage, tax contributions for a state pension, and your expectation is that with more experience in your chosen career, your salary will rise, so you can bank a lot in your 40's and 50's to make up the gap. ESL teachers enjoy the opportunity to bank more money in their early earning years than their peers in the west (outside of top end jobs like law and banking), but sacrifise the higher earning potential later in life. That means you need to be saving money right now - and lots of it.

There's also the problem that IMO, this ESL thing won't last forever. Japan used to be a place to rake in the cash. It's not anymore. Then it was Korea, but Korea has clamped down hard on private tutoring and salaries stagnated, so it's not the goldmine it used to be. China is huge, so it will likely take a while for the same thing to happen here, and given the current demand it might seem like lunacy to ever think this gravy train will dry up...but there's a good chance it will in the end. There might be another country to hop to after that, but it's not a guarantee. That's partly why I'm fanatical about earning as much as possible now, so I have some kind of cushion to fall back on if the unthinkable happens.

Just take a look at this: http://www.aviva-pensioncalculator.co.uk/ which gives a good indication of the type of money you need to be saving in order to have a good quality of life once it's time to retire (it's in GBP, but easy enough to convert to USD via google). Put in your age, current fund, and then have a play around to see what sort of monthly contributions you need to make to ensure you have a decent amount of money to live off (keep in mind that inflation, once you retire, will erode the value of your monthly sum, so you need to have X amount of income plus some extra to counter inflation). The sums are pretty frightening, especially if you're just coasting through your 20's, 30's and 40's on 6000rmb a month working 16 hours a week. Also keep in mind you'll no longer get a free apartment after you stop working, so you'll definitely need more than your current monthly income just to account for rental costs, unless you buy a property which will of course cost some additional cash on top.
The minimum anyone should be banking, assuming they're relatively young and have no savings right now, is $2,000 USD a month. If you're 40+ but still no savings, make that $3,000 USD a month. If you're 50 or above with no savings you're probably screwed, though I'd implore anyone in that situation to get their MA and go suffer in the gulf countries for 10 years to try and bridge the gap as much as humanly possible.

A reluctance to answer simply demonstrates an advocacy. Prefacing it with "IMO" doesn't mitigate what is clearly a persuasive argument, or as you say, a "wake up call".
But to rebut: Other posters have made it clear: You're trolling. You haven't the slightest idea what constitutes professional qualification or practice in this field.
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dblkhqc



Joined: 26 Feb 2015
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nomad soul wrote:
Emp1 wrote:
If you want 'professionalism', then you have to pay for it. That's the other side of the deal. Professionals expect things like good salaries, career development, pension planning, employee rights...good luck finding those in China outside of an international school.

I would certainly rather be the guy with a 'bad work attitude' who owns a house and a car, can go on nice holidays, provide his family a good life, and look forward to a comfortable future after finishing his working life, than an FT who gives 100% to his classes but lives his life poor, somehow convincing himself 6000rmb a month is decent living and no future planning is needed. That FT is an absolute idiot..


That's a major, run-on sentence. Anyway, what about accountability to those paying your salary?


Here we go, the grammar police and those with high post counts feel that they can say anything, about grammar and so and not focus on the points raised. "so called" seniority exempts them from consequences.
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Emp1



Joined: 25 Mar 2015
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

buravirgil wrote:

A reluctance to answer simply demonstrates an advocacy. Prefacing it with "IMO" doesn't mitigate what is clearly a persuasive argument, or as you say, a "wake up call".
But to rebut: Other posters have made it clear: You're trolling. You haven't the slightest idea what constitutes professional qualification or practice in this field.


Professional doctors go to medical school. Professional lawyers go to law school. Accountants take the CPA. Teachers take their PGCE/MA in Education. If you have no higher level quals, it's not a professional job, it's entry level transitional work where you can both easily replace your employer and be easily replaced yourself.

No one wants to directly take on the argument about banking lots of money being essential. They can't, because it's true. Anyone working in China and banking less than $2,000 USD a month is setting themselves up for a tough life long term.
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buravirgil



Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China

PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How a wide range of institutions and enterprises that deliver and manage their services and accreditation isn't something you know anything about. Posters have directly "taken on" your advocacy and dismissed it accordingly.
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