Job Discussion Forums

[WOOW]

I'm just wondering if any women in KSA could describe what it's "really" like living there. I'm thinking applying for a couple of positions there. Is it true that you can't walk freely down the street or go out without a male "escort"? Do you feel generally restricted? Any info from people on the ground would be much appreciated. Thanks...

[hash]

You can find literally tons of information on this subject on the internet just by casually prowling around. It took me like 5 seconds to find this one, for example:

http://www.expatarrivals.com/saudi-arabia/women-in-saudi-arabia

The real question (I'm asking as a male) is why a single western woman would even DREAM of coming to KSA "on a job". Without knowing your motives and objectives in this regard, any advice you might get will necessarily be irrelevant to your case.

.

[plumpy nut]

You don't have to have an escort. You will not be able to approach any males in public unless you can show that you are married, they are very strict on this stuff. I would be careful about taking taxis, I don't know what the consensus is on that not being female. Also you don't have to completely cover your face, you'll just have to wear a heavy veil and an abaya. If the money is worth it to you, then come, that's all I can say.

[scot47]

Not many people walk in Saudi Arabia ! Getting around needs a bit of planning - but it can be done. What are your motives for going ? Some go for religious reasons. Some for financial. The days of the big payola are long gone.

[Hatcher]

As noted above, unless its for money or religion, why go?

[scot47]

But which is it ? The "fluss" or the "deen" ?

[I-forgot]

The previous responses have been from men. Interesting as you requested a female point of view!

As a woman in Saudi, I felt quite safe. I wore an abaya and carried (ocassionally wore) a head scarf. A niqab can be useful if you want to sneak off campus early.

It is easy enough to take taxis. No need to be accompanied by a man or travel in a group of girls if you prefer to fly solo. Very easy to find male company when you want it but discretion is essential.

I tend to notice the restrictions when I leave Saudi for a break in Oman/UAE/Bahrain rather than when I am in the country. It is surprising how normal it can seem when you live there.

Based on my experience, I wouldn't worry about being a single woman in Saudi. I would, however, worry a lot about the things that hit all expat teachers - dropping salaries, employment rights, working conditions.

Based on four and a half years in Saudi, I would say things are not going to get better. They are going to get worse. Consider very carefully whether or not you want to work on an academic year contract for a low salary when your employer may withhold your end of service benefits and exit visa.

Based purely on my experience, Saudi salaries are no longer high enough for the employment hassles for men or women.

Edited for some appalling errors from an English teacher!

[bigdurian]

Disclaimer: I'm a man.

Have lived with a woman for five years in Saudi though. A lot of variables as to how you get treated in my opinion. The biggest two would be location and skin colour.

In the big three of Riyadh, Jeddah, Dammam etc then you won't have to cover your face. In malls etc you can even let your hair out, but be prepared to cover your hair with a scarf if the religious police ask you. No big deal, just remove it again when you're round the corner if that bothers you.

If however you're out in the boonies, be prepared to cover your face at all times. It's not illegal to not do so, but if you feel uncomfortable getting stared at everywhere you go, you should cover your face. My wife was actually physically attacked in a supermarket in Qassim by two Saudi women for not covering her face. Would they have done that if she was western and white? Probably not.

Avoid public taxis unless you know the driver, make other arrangements if possible. Drivers can be lecherous.

As a woman, if you're single, plenty of opportunities to meet guys in the big three, compound parties etc.

Wouldn't like to say about being out in public with a man. On the one hand, in five years my wife and i have never been stopped by the police and had to show proof of marriage. And when checking into hotels the guys at reception never ask for anything other than my Iqama. But you never know I guess.

My wife has always said that she feels the police etc are good at protecting women. She's been stopped in the street before when walking alone in Riyadh and asked what she is doing, but it's more to make sure she is okay than it being a problem. There was also a time when she got in a taxi alone, and the police stopped the taxi to check up on the driver, turned out his license had expired.

Last point is that my wife has always said that generally she feels badly treated by people, but she is not white or western, so is this because she's a woman, or of the wrong nationality?

[nomad soul]

Ditto I-forgot's points. BTW, the link hash provided is geared mostly toward trailing spouses. You'll find more relevant info via a Net search using: expat blog single female saudi.

I worked in Jeddah up until a few years ago and managed just fine on my own as a single female. If you're in a major/diverse city (e.g., Jeddah, Riyadh, and Dammam), you'll find living in KSA is not as challenging as you think. The kingdom is quite doable if you keep your expectations low/realistic, maintain a sense of humor, are flexible, and have an open mind.

As for covering your hair when out and about, I suggest following the lead of the other expat female teachers at your workplace. I always kept my hair covered when grocery shopping and such because I don't look like the stereotypical westerner. Plus, wearing a hijab never felt like an inconvenience. Your teaching colleagues will be helpful with info relevant to your particular city and working situation.

The better jobs tend to be direct hire opportunities for teachers with strong qualifications. (See the sticky in this forum.) However, always research your sponsor/employer before signing on the dotted line. Additionally, I suggest sticking to job ads that indicate employer-provided accommodations as opposed to a housing allowance (most include actual housing for female teachers anyway).

[KME0050]

As a single woman who has lived in two different cities in KSA, I think that two factors determine a single woman's quality of life: location and one's employer. My first experience was at a university in an uber-conservative smallish city where I experienced the following:

--Great difficulty finding housing: apartment managers did not want to rent to a single American woman due to the risks involved (to them) if anything were to happen to me while living in their building.

--Not a single place where I could be outdoors: no private outdoor spaces and all public outdoor spaces banned to a woman unaccompanied by a man. I tried going up on the roof of my apartment building in an attempt to get some fresh air, but my hijinks were discovered and I was reported to the manager.

--All restaurants were closed to women unaccompanied by a man with the exception of a lone Pizza Hut.

--I had one driver that I trusted. I quickly learned I should not use anyone else. I had two bad experience with other (Saudi) drivers: one stared at me in the rearview mirror and pleasured himself for the entire drive, and another tried to reach into the backseat and grab me when I opened the door to leave the car.

--I was required to wear an abaya and hijab AT ALL TIMES: when answering a knock on my door, when crossing the hall to my neighbor's apartment, and when going down to the lobby to ask a question. While I didn't have to cover my face, I could go nowhere without an abaya and headscarf.

--I was routinely harassed by the police when I attempted to take a very short stroll at night and was ordered to return to my apartment. They told me it wasn't safe and, in hindsight, I am inclined to agree with them.

--Then there was the near constant gawking by men, women, and even children. And people often took pictures of me with their phones which was extremely irritating.

--I did not have a single Western colleague--that is, no one who saw the world as I did (or in a manner even remotely similar). I made friends with some (otherwise) lovely women, but learned that there was a long list of topics best avoided (MOD edit)

Then my 22 year-old son came and visited me for about a month and during this time much changed. I now had a mahram (male guardian) and could go to every restaurant, walk anywhere, enjoy a cup of coffee while sitting outside, shop in the souks without incident, ride in any car without fear and generally have about as "normal" a life as is possible in this part of the country.

Next, I worked at a large university in Riyadh (but my employer was not the university) and lived on a small Western compound with some nice amenities and this was my experience:

--I had a pretty normal life! Men and women mixed freely and we had barbecues, pool parties, card nights, potluck dinners, and holiday celebrations.
--I worked with women from all over the world (Western and non-Western) and made some very good friends.
--I was provided with a very spacious (unshared), fully-furnished house with a patio and small yard (with palm trees and actual green grass).
--There was no dress code on the compound. We all wore whatever we wanted.
--I could walk around the compound and feel safe at any hour of the day or night.
--I could go to any restaurant in the city with my work and compound friends.
--I never had a problem with any drivers. I think the fact that they see women and their faces all the time helps them control themselves.
--I never attracted any attention no matter where I went in Riyadh as the city is crawling with expats.
--There were many opportunities to socialize with expats on other compounds.

To be honest, the work didn't matter that much in terms of the quality of my experience. Both universities were lousy, the students were profoundly weak, and the management was nearly as weak and unreasonable as the students. However, the fact that my second employer was located in a big city and provided me with housing on a compound made all the difference in the world.

Based on my own experience working in two cities and visiting several more in KSA, I could only recommend Jeddah, Riyadh, or Dammam to single women--especially young women. These cities have a large international expat community that includes many single women, and there is definitely strength in numbers. A group of single women going anywhere and doing anything together is infinitely safer than a woman alone. I never felt unsafe in Jeddah or Riyadh, but to a newcomer who might feel a bit skittish about venturing out alone, group trips are recommended.

I hope there is something in my experience that you might find helpful.

Best,

KME

[Gulezar]

[nomad soul]

The Kingdom isn't everyone's cup of tea. Frankly, the same can be said about other countries with a sizeable number of working expats.

WOOW:

If you have solid qualifications (i.e., a TESOL-related MA and a few years of experience), look for possible openings at Dar Al Hekma University and Effat University -- both are private women's unis in Jeddah. Other universities with female campuses/students and that hire directly include Prince Mohammad Bin Fahd University (PMU) in Al-Khobar, Prince Sultan University in Riyadh, Dammam Community College in Dammam, and Alfaisal University in Riyadh. Salaries and benefits vary, as does quality.

[WOOW]

thanks so much everyone..some very useful points here...

[currentaffairs]

Outside Riyadh, Dammam and Jeddah it is a lot more conservative. Women are not supposed to be walking alone and they should be with a male 'guardian'. Just don't expect to be as free as some make out if you don't end up in one of the big cities. Real taxis are also not available in many of the smaller towns and so better to travel with a friend.

[nomad soul]