Job Discussion Forums

[Sashadroogie]

Right. You must surely be aware that a little experience in second language learning is not the same as having learnt a second language? Perhaps some paraphrasing will make the subtleties more apparent - studying a language Vs mastering a language. Even have italics to assist.

These are not subtle alterations on my part. Just the basic meaning of the words involved. My main point hasn't changed at all since the thread started. Despite red herrings being thrown in.

And please tell me how some posters' 'opinions' - such a terrible word here - prove or disprove anything? I thought demands were made for research earlier? Not opinions. Though few actually bothered to read up on any of the studies or the researchers I mentioned. Please, let's be consistent here. Nobody on the other side has proven their point at all. But I'd welcome some of their research, which might show the truth of their claims.

But I am not so sure that posters with just an online TEFL cert - bucketloads of charm notwithstanding - would be familiar enough with the literature in the field. Actually, I think nearly all posters would shy away from researching too deeply into this question because it shows up the ugly premises that a lot of EFL notions are based on. The supposed superior competence of the native speaker, the continuing cultural colonisation of the developing world, and the active discrimination against non-native teachers.

If smugness is the charge, then perhaps we all might have a look at ourselves to see how many of us are guilty of it. I strongly suspect we are in the main more than a little guilty with regard to our attitudes to speakers of other languages - either students or NNESTs.

[Deats]

The 'opinions' of people here are first hand accounts of their own personal experiences. Therefore they are the evidence to prove or disprove this point as they have experienced what we are debating. What better evidence can there be?

A Christian can quote thousands of authors who prove, in their mind, that there is a God. An atheist can quote other authors that prove, in their mind, there isn't. Just because you can quote an author who agrees with your point doesn't make it valid. There will be other authors who disagree with you. I have no doubt the authors you have quoted have valid arguments to back up their claims. But I'm also sure there are other authors with valid arguments to back up counter claims. Obviously you have conveniently chosen not to reference such authors.

There is absolutely no way you can definitively prove that learning a second language means you will be a better teacher. I am one example that proves this theory isn't always true. Other people have also said the same. So we are all wrong, even though these are our first hand experiences?

For the record, I will once again state that the best ESL teacher I know is a NNEST. I have no prejudice against NNEST. Their main advantage is not being bi-lingual however, it is having learned English as their L2, which then translates into a better understanding of how to teach it. They can associate with the issues of learning English and what obstacles they encountered in this particular language. If a NEST undertakes the task of understanding how students learn English, as they should, then it does not always make a difference if they have an understanding in how to learn Welsh or Swahili. Yes broadly learning any language may help, but then again it may not.

Try listening to other posters on this forum, rather than ignoring every persons personal experiences as you seem to think they are below you, and you may actually learn something yourself.

Also, you seem to think studying a language is classed as a 60 minute CELTA lesson? Weird. Your definition of studying is so vague I think we need to re-write the dictionary definition.

[Sashadroogie]

So you didn't read any of the suggested research, then? Anecdotal stuff is more your line? Matches the slack attitude to training, I suppose.

[Deats]

Great reply.

Just keep repeating yourself.

Looks like the discussion is dead unless people are willing to do what Sasha demands from us.

Unless we read his favourite authors, we are not allowed to comment....

Too long in Russia has turned him into a dictator.

Over. And. Out.

[Sashadroogie]

Dear Johnslat

Can you please come to Deats' aid once more. I fear he is losing heart and may bail out of the discussion. Something more substantial than diversionary tactics is required. Not sure that will come about unassisted...


With Communist greetings

Sasha