Job Discussion Forums

[scot47]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_English

The idea of "Controlled Language" is a novel one to some newcomers to TEFL. In fact I can think of people I know who have been at this "Game" for years who have never learned to adapt their language to the audience.

Forget all the stuff you do on CELTA and read up on this !

[In the heat of the moment]

I wish the authors of Headway et al would practice this a bit more. Learners of English, at pre- to upper-intermediate level are not going to use a significant number of the vocabulary the books and tests require them to memorise. They also aren't going to use any perfect tense at that level, in conversation, as far as I have seen.

I liken obscure vocabulary and tenses to our learning algebra and a list of past Kings in the Middle Ages to "I have had some dinner" and "it was gratifying" - who talks like that on a day-to-day basis??

[spiral78]

Dunno. I think that present perfect for past experiences (have you ever done/been to) is pretty apt for intermediate learners.

[/quote]Learners of English, at pre- to upper-intermediate level are not going to use a significant number of the vocabulary the books and tests require them to memorise. They also aren't going to use any perfect tense at that level, in conversation, as far as I have seen.

[In the heat of the moment]

I don't agree, obviously. I'm being pragmatic in my approach, rather than academic, and I see it isn't that difficult to use the past simple to express something you've done.

"Did you ever.."
"Yeah, last year"

as opposed to;

"Have you ever.."
"Yes, I have."

I have what?? I have a book? I have a phone? No, I have been/seen/had etc

For intermediate level learners, who don't need to use the perfect tense and might not even have it in their own language, I put the Present Perfect tense in Room 101.

[spiral78]

IMO

Did you ever go to Egypt? (instead of Have you ever been to Egypt?)
Did you ever play football? ( instead of Have you ever played football?)

...are both technically grammatically incorrect. This also overlooks the fact that 'have/had/had' has more meanings than solely the possessive. Most learners are surely going to read or hear these perfect forms somewhere - if you haven't taught them, that is doing your learners a disservice in terms of what they will understand.


In terms of their own usage, if your learners are heading for university abroad or are in an international workforce, use of simple past for these functions can make them sound less than well educated or professional.

I think that introducing grammatically accurate forms only at the advanced level would put a lot of intermediate learners in a very unfair position, given that university programs typically accept B2 (strong intermediate) learners.

If your learners have no particular academic or professional need for the language, your option of past simple is probably going to work in casual conversation. But they are still highly likely to hear or read the correct forms, and that could be confusing.

[johnslat]

Jose never saw snow in his life.

Jose's never seen snow in his life.

Makes a difference which tense you use, especially to Jose.

Regards,
John

[Knedliki]

It was presented in Ogden's book Basic English: A General Introduction with Rules and Grammar (1930).

Good to see you've got your finger on the pulse there. Up to date with all the latest developments.

[In the heat of the moment]

Technically, E=MC2 is incorrect.

Technically, the spelling of 'Aluminium' is incorrect.

Technically, 'Gotta', 'Wanna' and Shoulda' are very incorrect. We use them every day.

Did you ever go to Egypt? (instead of Have you ever been to Egypt?)
Did you ever play football? ( instead of Have you ever played football?)

...are both technically grammatically incorrect.

I can't argue with those, as they don't 'feel' right. I'd never teach that way - I'm just trying to find a way to make English more accessible - but I'm interested in how they're incorrect.

[spiral78]

Did you ever go/play implies that you never will in the future (it's over) as in john's Jose example.

Also note the issue of 'have' not being limited to the possessive meaning.

If you think 'have done' is complicated, how do you deal with 'just'?

[spiral78]

[In the heat of the moment]

'Have just' + verb hasn't come up, I doubt it comes up in any pre- to upper-intermediate level books you've seen either.

Did you ever go to Egypt? (instead of Have you ever been to Egypt?)
Did you ever play football? ( instead of Have you ever played football?)

...are both technically grammatically incorrect.

Could you explain how they are? From a solely academic viewpoint.

[spiral78]

[In the heat of the moment]

[spiral78]

In the broader picture, I'll suggest that a pragmatic approach which ignores a standard tense form (perfect) but includes casual reductions which are not even universally used by native speakers of English might not be serving the learners optimally.

[In the heat of the moment]