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gregory999
Joined: 29 Jul 2015
Posts: 372
Location: 999
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 Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 7:01 pm Post subject: Do you accept that a police officer do this in your class? |
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White police officer 'throws black schoolgirl to ground to drag her around class in South Carolina'
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/614907/Video-white-police-officer-black-student-brutality
I wonder if the police officer would do the same with a white student?
Also, as a teacher, do you accept to call a police officer to eject a school student from your class?
Does not this show that the teacher in the above story failed to control/manage his student? |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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There's a bit more to it than this article tells. The guy's superior officer says he has been in a long-term relationship with a black woman, so it's unlikely that this was race-based, according to the superior officer.
There's also an element of general lack of discipline here on the part of the student - the girl was told by both her teacher and the school principal to put her phone away and/or to leave the classroom and she repeatedly refused. She deserved some consequences, though of course not what happened.
In any case, the officer has been fired.
Clearly the officer acted inappropriately and I think the decision to fire him was correct, but it's not a black and white event (either figuratively or literally).
Steki will no doubt be along shortly to remind us that there's no racism in the US anyway;-)
The more interesting question is: what would you do in such as case, as a teacher? From what I've heard, the student was disrupting the class with her cellphone, and refused to either put the phone away or to leave the class. The teacher called the principal and she continued the behavior. What would be an appropriate course of action in such a case?
One analyst suggested taking the rest of the class out of the room, but I think that if the culprit had any friends, that could backfire.
What would you do? |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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I've actually HAD situations like that. When a student refuses to give up the phone or leave the room, you're supposed to call the vice-principal. I never did. I handled it myself. I talked to the student and very calmly explained why I wanted the phone and that I'd give it back to her (actually, in my case, it was a "him") after class. I then explained that if he didn't give up the phone that once class was over, I would be calling his parents and making an appointment to meet with them to discuss his behavior. The kid gave me the phone. If he hadn't, I would have continued the class after telling him that first, he'd be marked absent, second, he would have to speak with the principal before returning to my class, and third, that the principal would have him and his parents come to the school to discuss his behavior. Calling in a security officer is an admission on the teacher's part that he/she can't handle the situation.
In thirty-five years, I've never had a situation that I couldn't handle. In Iran, when I was teaching at what was then called Pahlavi University in 1978, many of the students went on strike against the Shah. A group of them approached the class I was teaching (most of my students had chosen to come to class) to try to convince the attending students to leave. I let them in and let them talk to the students, but none of my students wanted to leave, which made the strikers mad. So, I spoke to the "leader," and told him that the students wanted to stay. If he was going to force them to leave, how was he any different from the Shah? I told him that if he was striking for "freedom," he had to respect the freedom of those who didn't agree with him. The strikers all left and we finished the class.
I would never use physical force on a student (unless he had a gun),. There is ALWAYS a better way to handle matters. I have zero respect for he school administration, the teacher, and the security officer in this instance. The first two, the administration and the teacher, are incompetent. The security officer is a jerk who used way excessive force. |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 12:24 am Post subject: |
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| johnslat wrote: |
Calling in a security officer is an admission on the teacher's part that he/she can't handle the situation.
I would never use physical force on a student (unless he had a gun),. There is ALWAYS a better way to handle matters. I have zero respect for he school administration, the teacher, and the security officer in this instance. The first two, the administration and the teacher, are incompetent. The security officer is a jerk who used way excessive force. |
I worked in resource-deprived, public schools for 18 years before going abroad. I've de-escalated many scenarios and did so by procedure and principle. Words are powerful-- their exchange. It's frustrating to witness what I know to be a series of relationships fail in their responses to what I've read described in educational books and articles as the "powerful" child.
So, based on the video (not secondary reports and what I "heard", which I will get to in a second) like John, my reaction to seeing the teacher's since disengaged, at-attention stare is revealing of a protocol's failure. It is an incompetence, but a complex one in which a lack of coordination is revealed and probably why John involves administration in his criticism. The entire class is "frozen" because they know, once the security officer is called, all bets are off and "resolutions" become severe consequences. Environments of fear are not "created" by immature and recalcitrant behavior, but asymmetries and gaps in protocol that rely on an authority granted a latitude (such as putting their hands on anyone) to resolve "safety" issues. Educational research has dismissed any need for physical contact in regards to discipline for a long time. The policies of public schools have, for some time now, reflected this. Yet, here we are: Environments of "safety".
Spiral's cite of what the officer's superior offers up as proof a racial aspect shouldn't be at issue because said officer is "in a relationship" (i.e., schtooping) with a black woman (while baiting forum members) is neither reasonable or particularly sensitive to the issues. Conclusions about motive from a "superior officer"? That's convenient. There aren't a multitude of complex issues to that scenario, no sir. /sarcasm"This officer is a role model to others! See this neighborhood award awarded last year! And this officer's role model is Thomas Jefferson, people! His needed white authority figure has hands all over the wayward, needful women of our little neighborhood and out of mutual love and respect!" A surprising response from Spiral. And so is framing this issue in terms of what is "heard"-- I don't know who with relevant information might be talking to you, but they should probably stop. And framing blame in terms of a juvenile's behavior and tasks of educators is inane and beneath a poster on who I've come to rely. Take a step back because I know your analyses to be amazingly insightful.
Last edited by buravirgil on Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
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wangdaning
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:50 am Post subject: |
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How long will it be until they mandate in the US that cell phones in class cannot be allowed (criminal even). There will be a reason, but not one we as teachers think about. I have never taught in the US, not in the area this happened, but I see this as a precursor.
As far as a teacher, I agree, no need to call in someone to enforce. Step back, look at what students are doing, then reflect on why (as a class or as an individual). If you cannot get the class to understand the outcomes of a course, get out, you cannot teach them.
Education theory is silly, I don't follow it personally, but I would never ask someone to abuse a student. |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| wangdaning wrote: |
| How long will it be until they mandate in the US that cell phones in class cannot be allowed (criminal even). There will be a reason, but not one we as teachers think about. |
Whatever Nostradamas.
Resist a temptation to politicize the thread, please.
| Quote: |
| Education theory is silly, I don't follow it personally, but I would never ask someone to abuse a student. |
Yeah, theory, disciplines, substantiated method... is for the birds.
It's unlikely the teacher requested "abuse".
He declared himself helpless (incompetent, in view of all commenting thus far) within a protocol of discipline given adminstrative sanction.
Officer "Loves a Lot" was quickly reduced to aggravated battery (but in the execution of duty) when flipping her desk-chair backwards...quite the extraction.
Reformed training will be forced to address "How to avoid the appearance of a brawl when furniture is involved and choke-holds are disallowed". |
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steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:01 am Post subject: |
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| spiral78 wrote: |
| There's a bit more to it than this article tells. The guy's superior officer says he has been in a long-term relationship with a black woman, so it's unlikely that this was race-based, according to the superior officer. |
The races of the parties and the black GF seem like red herrings to me. We should focus on the individuals here.
Looks to me like he used more force than he should but I think firing the man was too harsh.
I have mixed feelings about adult-child discipline in school. In Japan, I deal with a lot of horrible behavior from teens (mainly verbal abuse but sometimes physical violence). Teachers are largely expected to put up with it and report it to the principal, who may contact the parents. I am not sure what to do in these cases. |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| steki47 wrote: |
| Looks to me like he used more force than he should but I think firing the man was too harsh. |
That's some verbal dancing to me-- an anemic advocacy. What physical force would you approve? Do you approve of alleged language-- "You want a piece of this?"-- made to another student arrested for protesting his action after cuffing the "offender" and removing her from the class? Or shall you use the rhetoric of Senator Byrd and others such as First Cause? /goading you there
What I do have sympathy for is his poorly implemented position in the range of disciplinary responses-- that of an ultimatum granted purview to physically engage students, the hammer, as it were. And such is for "safety" and "security" mind you. I'm unsure how either were at risk. Are you?
| Quote: |
| I have mixed feelings about adult-child discipline in school. In Japan, I deal with a lot of horrible behavior from teens (mainly verbal abuse but sometimes physical violence). Teachers are largely expected to put up with it and report it to the principal, who may contact the parents. I am not sure what to do in these cases. |
What does adult-child discipline mean? What instances of an alternative are there? Child-child/Adult-adult? What's at issue is physical contact. So, forego the euphemism and address it. You're supportive of adults putting their hands on children in a disciplinary manner. You're supportive of a broader discretion among a general population.
In 1990, I was trained in "forced time-outs" with elementary children, a discontinued practice except for special education and, in 2007, trained in that environment. There is no research to support physical contact is necessary to effectively discipline students of a normative, developmental classification-- nada.
Verbal abuse? Can I assume you're euphemizing shouting? Or do you mean threats? Perhaps you chose a fuzzy term to include both: There is no verbal engagement of which I child is capable that can't be addressed by demonstrable method. Moving on to physical assault, both of person and property...first off, procedures of documentation must be in place. Second, training specific to the population in question. It's not some chaotic, de-evoloving world out there. Professionals and professional settings aren't bewildered and stupefied by long-documented behaviors. They're anticipated and resolved, daily.
And this is why other posters have levelled criticisms of competency. |
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steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| buravirgil wrote: |
| steki47 wrote: |
| Looks to me like he used more force than he should but I think firing the man was too harsh. |
That's some verbal dancing to me-- an anemic advocacy. What physical force would you approve? |
Yes, it is verbal dancing as I am unsure of my own opinion here. Physical abuse disgusts me on an gut level but I certainly understand that children need to understand that there are rules to be followed and consequences for their actions.
Sorry for bringing up my own experiences in Japan. A tangent I don't need to get into here. I will also skip over the race issue as that may also be irrelevant.
For what it is worth, a lot of students liked that officer.
Russia's Trolling covered it:
https://www.rt.com/usa/320204-students-protest-school-officer-firing/ |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:40 am Post subject: |
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| steki47 wrote: |
| Yes, it is verbal dancing as I am unsure of my own opinion here. Physical abuse disgusts me on an gut level but I certainly understand that children need to understand that there are rules to be followed and consequences for their actions. |
It's no claim that physical abuse disgusts you because that's a given, minus sociopaths. Making such a claim and following it by an opposing conjuction (but) is a framing, or persuasive argument, to assert something else. In this case, the assertion is only another given-- that children need to learn there are consequences for their actions. Rather than burning a candle at both ends, you're refusing to light either. I suppose articulating that you can't articulate what you think has a value to...I dunno, unsaid biases?
Can you substantiate any claim that physical contact from a "safety officer" has any place in an educational setting? Given your reasoning, a fire marshall could equip every classroom with flammable furniture and claim a lesson has been learned when, inevitably, the structure is ablaze.
Okay, so you can't legitimately reason the topic, but your opinion is poor Officer "Put you hands behind your back" (because you asked for it) was dealt a harsh consequence. That's quite an irony. And that a survey of children is relevant to standards and practices in education with a disclaimer of for what's it worth. Nothing. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
A surprising response from Spiral. And so is framing this issue in terms of what is "heard"-- I don't know who with relevant information might be talking to you, but they should probably stop. And framing blame in terms of a juvenile's behavior and tasks of educators is inane and beneath a poster on who I've come to rely. Take a step back because I know your analyses to be amazingly insightful.
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Hmm. I reported what's being reported on US news channels. Seriously doubt they'll 'stop.'
And, yeah, I do honestly think that the behavior of the student warranted some action, though being body slammed by a police officer was clearly far outside the range of appropriate response. |
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steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| buravirgil wrote: |
| steki47 wrote: |
| Yes, it is verbal dancing as I am unsure of my own opinion here. Physical abuse disgusts me on an gut level but I certainly understand that children need to understand that there are rules to be followed and consequences for their actions. |
It's no claim that physical abuse disgusts you because that's a given, minus sociopaths. Making such a claim and following it by an opposing conjuction (but) is a framing, or persuasive argument, to assert something else. In this case, the assertion is only another given-- that children need to learn there are consequences for their actions. Rather than burning a candle at both ends, you're refusing to light either. I suppose articulating that you can't articulate what you think has a value to...I dunno, unsaid biases?
Can you substantiate any claim that physical contact from a "safety officer" has any place in an educational setting? Given your reasoning, a fire marshall could equip every classroom with flammable furniture and claim a lesson has been learned when, inevitably, the structure is ablaze.
Okay, so you can't legitimately reason the topic, but your opinion is poor Officer "Put you hands behind your back" (because you asked for it) was dealt a harsh consequence. That's quite an irony. And that a survey of children is relevant to standards and practices in education with a disclaimer of for what's it worth. Nothing. |
Gosh, you went to a good school, didn't you? |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| spiral78 wrote: |
Hmm. I reported what's being reported on US news channels. Seriously doubt they'll 'stop.'
And, yeah, I do honestly think that the behavior of the student warranted some action, though being body slammed by a police officer was clearly far outside the range of appropriate response. |
Your relating of reports was an effort to better frame the OP, but baited a forum member and interpreted a report in terms of the discussion.
Define action, as you prompted others to do. Condemning a patent abuse is what exactly? Noteworthy? |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| I think johnslat's addressed the question of 'what to do' quite clearly. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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Dear buravirgil,
"Condemning a patent abuse is what exactly? Noteworthy?"
If you've been following the social media, I'm surprised you haven't observed just how many people do not consider the policeman's conduct to be an abuse, never mind a "patent abuse."
And that is what really scares me.
Regards,
John |
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