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kugaas · Joined: 24 May 2009 Posts: 17 Location: London

May seem be a daft question but I've always wondered why reading and writing, listening and speaking are typically paired when combining skills.

There are loads of books designed in this fashion. Neither can I seem to find any reading and speaking and listening and writing books. Is there an obvious reason that I've seemed to miss out on?

Any scholarly work, authoritative literature on this topic would greatly be appreciated.

p.s. I can think of great lessons when reading and speaking, listening and writing are paired. no?

buravirgil · Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:43 am Post subject:

It's a profound question-- the convention is receptive and productive skills are paired. The convention is provide a model to be mirrored. But alternatives are many. Whole Language, for instance, turned approaches to writing with the youngest of learners on their head. Instead of an emphasis on reading to proceed to writing, the shorthand was: What I think, I can say. What I say, I can write. What I write, I can read. But WL was not an end and be all and I'm citing from the world of development. So, not so relevant.

What becomes problematic is any prescription, or assertions of what organization should remain/become prevalent. I hope this thread takes flight because, right now, I can't organize what attentions to function have provided me alternatives over the years. It's a "dense" way to begin, but the descriptions of pragmatics and semiotics (some fifty years of study) have had my attention since beginning to teach.

johnslat · Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:24 pm Post subject:

Reading's the key to all the other skill areas, but writing's almost always the hardest skill to improve upon.

Reading's listening inside your head. Writing's formal speaking on paper.

Regards,
John

In the heat of the moment · Joined: 22 May 2015 Posts: 393 Location: Italy

johnslat · Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:31 pm Post subject:

Dear In the heat if the moment,

Well, as for writing's being the hardest skill to improve upon, I'm going only on my experience.

It'd be interesting, though to hear what others think.

Regards,
John

fluffyhamster · Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:29 pm Post subject:

Writing, especially formal writing, is tough - you have to already be in the ballpark phraseologically and collocationally, and you can only use circumlocution so much before vexing the reader.

johnslat · Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:02 pm Post subject:

Well, you have to bring so much to writing to get it right: capitalization, punctuation, spelling, vocabulary, grammar, syntax, etc,

Regards,
John

In the heat of the moment · Joined: 22 May 2015 Posts: 393 Location: Italy

spiral78 · Joined: 05 Apr 2004 Posts: 11534 Location: On a Short Leash

In the heat of the moment · Joined: 22 May 2015 Posts: 393 Location: Italy

spiral78 · Joined: 05 Apr 2004 Posts: 11534 Location: On a Short Leash

I've probably been pretty lucky over the past 18 years - my students have to write at high levels for real readers (not just other teachers) in the foreseeable future, so grades are not their only motivation. For us, writing may not be their highest priority, but they can at least see the actual need.

johnslat · Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:55 pm Post subject:

I think it depends on where you're working and your students' goals. Here in the USA nowadays, the BIG focus is on Career and Academic pathways. One program in our department is called ACE (Academic and Career Education).

The career education part is often what used to be called "vocational" in programs such as iBest, which uses team teaching: a "vocational" instructor and an English instructor.

An ESL student who wants to take an iBest program (e.g. Culinary Arts, Home Health. Teaching Assistant, etc.) would have to be upper level, in our ESL program that would mean Levels 5.6, or 7.

But many of our students want to take credit classes and get an AA, then a BA. There's the "academic pathway.

So, when they get to the higher levels, there's usually a split: those who want "vocational training" also take iBest, while those whose want to take credit classes take the "Transitions" class, which focuses on academic reading and writing.

In the "career pathways," there less emphasis om writing, academic or otherwise.

Regards,
John

johnslat · Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 6:40 pm Post subject:

I think we need to consult with Dr Calvin and Dr. Hobbes:

http://bondwine.com/2015/09/17/calvin-and-hobbes-on-writing/

Regards,
John

In the heat of the moment · Joined: 22 May 2015 Posts: 393 Location: Italy

3701 W.119th · Joined: 26 Feb 2014 Posts: 386 Location: Central China

Most of my freshmen students can read and write to a pretty impressive level. Seems those two skills are their comfort zone. I studied French and German to GCSE level and passed my exams, (like they have English), but I can't remember more than a handful of words or sentences. Certainly couldn't read or write around topics on demand, like I sometimes ask of my learners.

Yet, when I ask some of them 'How are you today?', they'll say stuff like 'My name is Ling!', or 'It's Wednesday!'.

'My oral English is poor.' - What almost every Chinese learner will say when you meet them, always. Even when it's anything but.