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Red535
Joined: 16 Jun 2015
Posts: 5
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 Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:18 pm Post subject: Best place for looking for a job in-country |
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What country is best suited for arriving there first with some cash and looking for a job post arrival?
Here are some things about me since they might be applicable: US citizen, English degree, previous ESL experience, no TESOL, CELTA, or TEFL.
Open to any place: Asia, Europe, South America.
Thanks. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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As a US passport holder, you're not legally allowed to work in Western Europe with very few exceptions (see the Spain and France boards below for info on student visas).
Central/Eastern Europe is an option. It is normal here to find a job in-country (unusual to be hired from abroad, in fact).
Ideal procedure is to take a CELTA or equivalent course in the country where you want to work in August, then job-search in the peak hiring period of September.
As a non-EU member citizen, you are at a disadvantage in Central Europe (there are tons of UK teachers who need no work visas on this job market) but it's still usually do-able. However, you'll want to maximize your chances of success in terms of timing and qualifications.
Most every newbie on this job market has a CELTA or equivalent cert (120 hours on site with supervised teaching for real students), so any less puts you at a very significant disadvantage. Your English degree won't overcome lack of a CELTA (knowledge of the language is no guarantee that you can teach it effectively). |
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Red535
Joined: 16 Jun 2015
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks, appreciate it. Hmm, I think if I am going to spend money on a CELTA, I'd rather just go the whole nine yards and get an English teaching certificate in my state. |
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santi84
Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 1317
Location: under da sea
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Red535 wrote: |
| Thanks, appreciate it. Hmm, I think if I am going to spend money on a CELTA, I'd rather just go the whole nine yards and get an English teaching certificate in my state. |
What kind of students do you plan to teach? The K-12 certificate and CELTA are aimed at very different audiences. I work in both adult ed and K-12 (grade one at the moment) and the jobs bear little resemblance to each other. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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A teaching certificate in Europe is generally useful only at international schools, which are limited in numbers. The visa issues for Western Europe still apply, and openings at international schools in Central/Eastern Europe aren't abundant.
You may not be aware that the European job market for EFL teachers is primarily centered on adult/business English. State schools employ qualified locals, so it's quite rare to get a job in an actual state school (though there are a few exceptions), and the jobs in state schools don't pay well in general.
This is why a CELTA is the standard for the region - it's focused primarily on teaching adults.
Other regions are different - in Asia it's common to teach children. I'm speaking only for the region that I know well (having taught here since 1998). |
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Red535
Joined: 16 Jun 2015
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| spiral78 wrote: |
A teaching certificate in Europe is generally useful only at international schools, which are limited in numbers. The visa issues for Western Europe still apply, and openings at international schools in Central/Eastern Europe aren't abundant.
You may not be aware that the European job market for EFL teachers is primarily centered on adult/business English. State schools employ qualified locals, so it's quite rare to get a job in an actual state school (though there are a few exceptions), and the jobs in state schools don't pay well in general.
This is why a CELTA is the standard for the region - it's focused primarily on teaching adults.
Other regions are different - in Asia it's common to teach children. I'm speaking only for the region that I know well (having taught here since 1998). |
Indeed, I wasn't aware of that fact. Hmm you have given me quite a lot to consider. Thank you.
| santi84 wrote: |
| Red535 wrote: |
| Thanks, appreciate it. Hmm, I think if I am going to spend money on a CELTA, I'd rather just go the whole nine yards and get an English teaching certificate in my state. |
What kind of students do you plan to teach? The K-12 certificate and CELTA are aimed at very different audiences. I work in both adult ed and K-12 (grade one at the moment) and the jobs bear little resemblance to each other. |
I've only ever worked with kids. Mostly high school and middle school. Was never a fan of working with the lower age groups from the Elementary bracket. |
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santi84
Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 1317
Location: under da sea
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Red535 wrote: |
| spiral78 wrote: |
A teaching certificate in Europe is generally useful only at international schools, which are limited in numbers. The visa issues for Western Europe still apply, and openings at international schools in Central/Eastern Europe aren't abundant.
You may not be aware that the European job market for EFL teachers is primarily centered on adult/business English. State schools employ qualified locals, so it's quite rare to get a job in an actual state school (though there are a few exceptions), and the jobs in state schools don't pay well in general.
This is why a CELTA is the standard for the region - it's focused primarily on teaching adults.
Other regions are different - in Asia it's common to teach children. I'm speaking only for the region that I know well (having taught here since 1998). |
Indeed, I wasn't aware of that fact. Hmm you have given me quite a lot to consider. Thank you.
| santi84 wrote: |
| Red535 wrote: |
| Thanks, appreciate it. Hmm, I think if I am going to spend money on a CELTA, I'd rather just go the whole nine yards and get an English teaching certificate in my state. |
What kind of students do you plan to teach? The K-12 certificate and CELTA are aimed at very different audiences. I work in both adult ed and K-12 (grade one at the moment) and the jobs bear little resemblance to each other. |
I've only ever worked with kids. Mostly high school and middle school. Was never a fan of working with the lower age groups from the Elementary bracket. |
I don't blame you, the grade ones drive me to.madness on most days. If you are interested in further training, then I agree with licensure, otherwise, I'd probably leave it at what you have.
I know China and Korea have a high demand for kiddos. |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| spiral78 wrote: |
| Your English degree won't overcome lack of a CELTA (knowledge of the language is no guarantee that you can teach it effectively). |
Depends on the degree. The courses and practicum comprising mine are superior to a DELTA.
Because DELTA "diploma" holders don't typically present original work at a TESOL conference, spend a similar duration studying historical and contrastive linguistics, coordinate with Education degree holders to source and design materials, or examine international policy as it relates to future work. Not that I'm aware of, anyway. And what year was it DELTA materials were approved for some graduate-level course work? Around 2011 was it? I forget.
You might ask a degree holder about their English degree? before suggesting a month-long, cursory and prescriptive training course will assuredly render its awardee with effective skills while assuming their coursework was only a concentration in literature or creative writing.
Having said that, Spiral and Santi84 have not steered the OP wrong in any sense of the word after the OP suggested affording state licensure was a better idea than spending money on a CELTA. But, again, it can depend on the courses comprising that Ed degree.
Might it be a difference of perception among Europeans and US graduates: Conflating prescriptive training and applying descriptive study? |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| But, again, it can depend on the courses comprising that Ed degree |
The OP has a degree in English, not in education. It's a logical assumption that the degree did not focus on pedagogical issues.
If the English degree the OP holds had a pedagogical component, of course s/he should state that on an application.
I've interviewed numerous English degree holders over the years, with US and UK degrees. Very few included an education/pedagogical component, so it's a logical assumption that this one probably didn't. Santi is Canadian - another base covered that English degrees usually don't include teaching.
And no-one's suggested a DELTA for the OP at this stage. That would be overkill as well. |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| spiral78 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| But, again, it can depend on the courses comprising that Ed degree |
The OP has a degree in English, not in education. |
You're selectively reading again.
I addressed what degree the OP has as well as what degree the OP erroneously asserted they would pursue in lieu of a CELTA, until you guys set them straight. 
Your logical assumption was also a blanket statement: Your degree in English... |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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An English teaching certificate is not an Education degree.
Yes, based on my fairly extensive experience in hiring, few English degree holders have pedagogical training. That is indeed my assumption in this case, which the OP is of course entirely free to refute if in fact s/he has it. |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| spiral78 wrote: |
| An English teaching certificate is not an Education degree. |
In the US, licensure to teach English requires an Education degree.
Or maybe I've misunderstood your term 'English teaching certificate'. And I had not suggested the OP consider a DELTA, only that an English degree can involve study and practice equivalent to one to emphasize assuming any and all English degree holders should take a CELTA course isn't necessarily true.
And do you not see that I addressed what degree the OP clearly states they have? |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Red535 wrote: |
What country is best suited for arriving there first with some cash and looking for a job post arrival?
Here are some things about me since they might be applicable: US citizen, English degree, previous ESL experience, no TESOL, CELTA, or TEFL.
Open to any place: Asia, Europe, South America.
....
I think if I am going to spend money on a CELTA, I'd rather just go the whole nine yards and get an English teaching certificate in my state.
....
I've only ever worked with kids. Mostly high school and middle school. Was never a fan of working with the lower age groups from the Elementary bracket. |
Your BA in English plus an English literacy/language arts teaching license from your state's department of education and a couple years of experience teaching English in a secondary public school will qualify you to teach English language arts in (real) American-curriculum international schools in the regions you mentioned. This would entail teaching English (not EFL) to middle or high schoolers abroad whose first or primary language is English as well as those with near-native language proficiency. In other words, it's the English class we all took as kids in the US. The addition of an ESOL endorsement from your state would also be beneficial. Jobs are advertised on sites like Teach Away, Serious Teachers, Footprints, etc., and may not require that you be in country to apply.
But if you want to teach EFL to non-native speakers, check job ads in your target regions for the level of TEFL training employers want to see. Also, head to the general Asia, Latin America, and Europe forums for more specific info on landing a job and about TEFL certs. |
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Xie Lin
Joined: 21 Oct 2011
Posts: 731
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| buravirgil wrote: |
| spiral78 wrote: |
| Your English degree won't overcome lack of a CELTA (knowledge of the language is no guarantee that you can teach it effectively). |
Depends on the degree. The courses and practicum comprising mine are superior to a DELTA.
Because DELTA "diploma" holders don't typically present original work at a TESOL conference, spend a similar duration studying historical and contrastive linguistics, coordinate with Education degree holders to source and design materials, or examine international policy as it relates to future work. Not that I'm aware of, anyway. And what year was it DELTA materials were approved for some graduate-level course work? Around 2011 was it? I forget.
You might ask a degree holder about their English degree? before suggesting a month-long, cursory and prescriptive training course will assuredly render its awardee with effective skills while assuming their coursework was only a concentration in literature or creative writing.
Having said that, Spiral and Santi84 have not steered the OP wrong in any sense of the word after the OP suggested affording state licensure was a better idea than spending money on a CELTA. But, again, it can depend on the courses comprising that Ed degree.
Might it be a difference of perception among Europeans and US graduates: Conflating prescriptive training and applying descriptive study? |
Ummm. . . not really. A hodge-podge of irrelevance.
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Xie Lin wrote: |
| Ummm. . . not really. A hodge-podge of irrelevance. |
I disagree.
Can you be more specific? Because quoting an entire post (especially one of any length) to summarily dismiss its entirety is not demonstrative or supportive of the assertion.
If that's your opinion, okay. But I tend to substantiate claims and provide supportive evidence or argument. My post wasn't irrelevant to the topic when another member chooses to make suggestions and inform a new member about pursuing ESL work with only an English degree. In fact, Spiral asserted such a background couldn't "overcome" the advantages of a CELTA.
To be fair, Spiral admittedly releated what makes for a competitive resume in Europe, but I've consistently challenged experienced members of the forum about asserting the CELTA (and its equivalent) is the "best training" to pursue. I do so because of what study I pursued of Linguistics and the opinions of graduate students with whom I shared that study.
As to hodge-podge...well, phrasal dismissals may seem like effective discourse, but aren't challenging to form and fairly easy to defend because they lack much substance. |
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