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rosalind
Joined: 02 Oct 2005
Posts: 28
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 Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:02 am Post subject: International House/Cambridge "can't find" my CELT |
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Hello all:
I've been caught flat-footed by a fairly horrible and increasingly Kafka-esque situation. It's stalled me in the midst of application high season, my training centre is alarmingly unresponsive, and I'm running out of ideas. I'm turning here in hopes of advice, or even some kind of moral support, because I really wasn't expecting anything like this. I'm badly shaken and I don't know what to do.
My situation: In August 2004, I took a CELTA course with International House Rivera Maya (Mexico), in what was -- as I now know, though I'm not sure if I knew it then -- the first year of that centre's operation. After a lot of blood, sweat and tears, I passed the class and, as one does, went on to build an (albeit modest) career in ESL. (I worked in France for two years, returned to the US for several years for family reasons, and then from 2010-2015 have been working in Japan.)
Now I am -- or was, until three weeks ago -- applying for teaching jobs in Asia and the Gulf, starting in summer/fall 2016. (I'm currently based in SEA, where I went after leaving Japan.) Many of these applications require scanned copies of my certificates and degrees. Unfortunately, my CELTA certificate is currently buried somewhere in the U.S. home of an elderly relative with hoarding tendencies. I wish I'd scanned the thing years ago, but I never did.
So I gritted my teeth, went online, and -- as one does, if, like me, one has not taken the precaution of scanning one's certificate early on -- paid Cambridge ~ $120 USD for an urgent, expedited records search and validation certification.
And THEY CAN'T FIND IT.
They sent me an email saying, among other things,
> "Centre MX800 [the centre in question] has no records of CELTA exams up to 2004. ... They did however have CELTA exams from 2005 onwards but we were unable to find you listed on our records. Records were searched up to the year 2012. ... We suggest that you contact your Centre regarding this and ask them to confirm if they offered one of our qualifications."
O M F G __WHAT DOES THIS MEAN_________
So I did what anyone would do, right? I contacted the centre, IH Riviera Maya, at lightning speed.
And... And that was almost two weeks ago. In the course of those two weeks, I have sent them multiple emails; have cc'ed both directors whose email addresses I can find online; have forwarded them all my correspondence with Cambridge.
And I'm not getting anything useful from them. They don't reply until I prod them for an update, and when I do, they send me content-light replies that act as if they haven't received my previous emails. I've CC'd the directors, but neither of them has responded, only an "assistant director," from whom I'm not getting any actual answers. I don't want to assume the worst about anyone -- and this is International House! It's huge and respectable! It's my alma mater, for Christ's sake! -- but THEY'RE NOT ANSWERING. And I'm starting to come to the horrible conclusion that they're stonewalling me, in the hopes that I'll just go away.
This is serious to me! Serious as a heart attack! It's my career, for God's sake. I can't believe that International House would be behaving in this way, but I really am running out of alternative interpretations.
Has anyone _ever_ has any kind of experience like this before? What the hell do I do? It's the middle of hiring season, my twelve-year-old qualification is suddenly being called into question, I'm on the receiving end of a horrible deadening silence from IH Riviera Maya, and I'm running out of ideas. What do I do, everyone? |
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rosalind
Joined: 02 Oct 2005
Posts: 28
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| Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:32 am Post subject: |
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ETA: Some more info about this bizarreness.
- In one of the few responses I’ve had from them, IHRM asked me for the dates of the course I took, and the name of the course tutor.
I replied with a detailed response in which I gave them the approximate course dates, as well as I remember them, and also explained that I couldn’t remember the full name of the course tutor. But I did remember a number of details about him, and about some of my classmates. I listed these. I asked them to check their own records from 2004, in which they ought to find my name, as well as that of the course tutor, and the other people I described, and from which we should be able to fill in the missing information.
That was a week ago. Yesterday, I emailed prompting for an update. The response:
"Were you able to help with any of the information I mentioned in the email?"
Are they… Are they just messing with me? O.O
- Very unfortunately (for me), I’m light on “documentation” from this period. It was 2004, and my email archives only go back to 2005; I’ve lost access to the university email account I was using in 2004. And my paper records are all back in the U.S., while I’m in SEA.
- I’m starting to wonder if my only hope might be to track down someone else who took the course with me in 2004, or someone involved with the center at the time, so I can get the name of the tutor — and at least stop feeling like I’m being gaslighted by IHRM’s silence. There were several classes of students that year (although maybe no more than two or four groups, if the centre only opened at mid-year.) They all really existed, and they all paid a bundle for CELTA classes. And, apparently, according to the e-mails I received, not a single one of us is actually registered with Cambridge.
But the students — and the tutors, and the people running the centre at the time — are all out there. Unfortunately for me, I haven’t kept in touch with any of them. Can anyone wiser than I am in the ways of EFL networking, maybe possibly, give me some idea of how I might shake the tree to try to find them?
Thanks so much, in advance, for any advice. I'm really feeling hung out to dry here. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:46 am Post subject: |
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| rosalind wrote: |
Now I am -- or was, until three weeks ago -- applying for teaching jobs in Asia and the Gulf, starting in summer/fall 2016. (I'm currently based in SEA, where I went traveling after leaving Japan.) Many of these applications require scanned copies of my certificates and degrees. Unfortunately, my CELTA certificate is currently buried somewhere in the U.S. home of an elderly relative with hoarding tendencies. I wish I'd scanned the thing years ago, but I never did.
....
This is serious to me! Serious as a heart attack! It's my career, for God's sake. I can't believe that International House would be behaving in this way, but I really am running out of alternative interpretations.
Has anyone _ever_ has any kind of experience like this before? What the hell do I do? It's the middle of hiring season, my twelve-year-old qualification is suddenly being called into question, I'm on the receiving end of a horrible deadening silence from IH Riviera Maya, and I'm running out of ideas. What do I do, everyone? |
Grit your teeth and either:1) retake the CELTA course; or
2) call in a troop of friends and relatives to help you search the home of your elderly, hoarding relative for the certificate.
It's not what you want to hear, but trying to get 10-year-old records from a small business is pretty much pointless. Even in the US, business records/documents are kept for a couple of years, others between 5-10 years, before being archived off site or destroyed. So you can't blame IH for an oversight on your part; their obligation to provide you with training and issue you a certificate was fulfilled more than a decade ago.
Anyway, this is why it's always advisable to keep the originals of key documents either in a designated, secure place in your home country (or in a safe deposit box) or with you when you travel. But never with elderly relatives -- hoarding or not.
If you've applied to jobs in Saudi Arabia, you'll very likely need to show proof of your original TEFL cert in order to obtain an employment visa. |
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rosalind
Joined: 02 Oct 2005
Posts: 28
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| Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:04 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for your feedback, nomad soul.
| nomad soul wrote: |
| It's not what you want to hear, but trying to get 10-year-old records from a small business is pretty much pointless. |
Hm. Perhaps. But is International House a "small business"?
I did business with them in the first place, in large part, because I viewed them as large and well-established enough to be reputable.
| nomad soul wrote: |
| Even in the US, business records/documents are kept for a couple of years, others between 5-10 years, before being archived off site or destroyed. |
Is this really the common standard for globally-recognized training, education, and qualifications records? I must say I haven't had any trouble getting hold of replacement copies of my university transcripts or diplomas, and those are well older than 2004.
| nomad soul wrote: |
| So you can't blame IH for an oversight on your part; their obligation to provide you with training and issue you a certificate was fulfilled more than a decade ago. |
I agree that I should have been more careful with my original certificate. That's why I gritted my teeth and ponied up the $100+ to replace it.
But I'm pretty sure that International House entered into a contract with me to provide me with a _Cambridge-recognized_ CELTA certification. The problem here is that Cambridge, it turns out, does _not_ recognize me, my name, or the course I took. It's not just a piece of paper I bought and sweated for, it's a _qualification_, and it's one that is supposed to be in Cambridge's records.
I kind of have the feeling that if I.H. failed to register me -- or any of their 2004 students -- with Cambridge, there is, in fact, an element of obligation that _they_ failed, not me. I can't see how that oversight can possibly be blamed on me.
Am I overlooking something? |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| rosalind wrote: |
| Is this really the common standard for globally-recognized training, education, and qualifications records? I must say I haven't had any trouble getting hold of replacement copies of my university transcripts or diplomas, and those are well older than 2004. |
Universities don't destroy academic records because they're needed over a lifetime for employment purposes and for qualifying for higher degrees/further education. That's not the case for the CELTA, which isn't an academic qualification. Plus, most TEFL training centers are independently-owned and run for-profit businesses. They can choose when to delete old info or shred outdated documents. It's not unusual for records over 10 years to be destroyed. See Shredding Personal Documents and When to Dispose of Them.
| and rosalind wrote: |
Very unfortunately (for me), I’m light on “documentation” from this period. It was 2004, and my email archives only go back to 2005; I’ve lost access to the university email account I was using in 2004. And my paper records are all back in the U.S., while I’m in SEA.
....
I kind of have the feeling that if I.H. failed to register me -- or any of their 2004 students -- with Cambridge, there is, in fact, an element of obligation that _they_ failed, not me. I can't see how that oversight can possibly be blamed on me. |
Frankly, the only way you can possibly prove to Cambridge that IH failed to register your cert back in 2004 is by producing all of your enrollment and training documentation in addition to the original CELTA cert that was issued to you (since you apparently never made copies). Otherwise, it's your word against theirs that you ever completed (or even attended) their training, and that won't cut it. As I suggested, get some family members to search for the CELTA at your elderly relative's home. |
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HLJHLJ
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 1218
Location: Ecuador
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| Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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| rosalind wrote: |
I kind of have the feeling that if I.H. failed to register me -- or any of their 2004 students -- with Cambridge, there is, in fact, an element of obligation that _they_ failed, not me. I can't see how that oversight can possibly be blamed on me. |
Unless things were done differently in 2004 (which is of course possible), Cambridge issues the diplomas not individual institutions. So if you received a diploma, you were registered at some point.
And universities don't always keep records forever either. Neither my husband nor I can get transcripts for our bachelors because our universities don't have the records.
I'm afraid I agree with nomad soul. As frustrating as this is for you, it's your screw up. Go and look for your original. |
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Xie Lin
Joined: 21 Oct 2011
Posts: 731
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| Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| HLJHLJ wrote: |
Go and look for your original
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And this time make a copy! Or rather, scan it into a computer file so that you can make a copy whenever you need one. Make sure the file is backed up on-line, whether in your web-based email account, Cloud, or other on-line storage. Alternatively, you can back up with a thumb drive. I do BOTH for all my documents. 
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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Surely UCLES in Cambridge will have a record ?
Being an adult is tough. |
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rtm
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 1003
Location: US
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| Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| rosalind wrote: |
In the course of those two weeks, I have sent them multiple emails; have cc'ed both directors whose email addresses I can find online; have forwarded them all my correspondence with Cambridge.
And I'm not getting anything useful from them. They don't reply until I prod them for an update, and when I do, they send me content-light replies that act as if they haven't received my previous emails. I've CC'd the directors, but neither of them has responded, only an "assistant director," from whom I'm not getting any actual answers. |
So much of what you are complaining about has to do with people not replying to emails. Have you picked up the phone and called them?
| rosalind wrote: |
| I kind of have the feeling that if I.H. failed to register me -- or any of their 2004 students -- with Cambridge, there is, in fact, an element of obligation that _they_ failed, not me. I can't see how that oversight can possibly be blamed on me. |
No, that is definitely their fault, but what are you going to do? I suppose you could sue them for fraud or something, but good luck navigating the court system in Mexico. You'd also need some kind of evidence, such as your original certificate, and if you had that, you wouldn't be in this mess to begin with. |
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Xie Lin
Joined: 21 Oct 2011
Posts: 731
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| Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| rtm wrote: |
So much of what you are complaining about has to do with people not replying to emails. Have you picked up the phone and called them?
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I came back to this thread intending to write just that! More than once I have had the experience of emailing someone repeatedly, either without respoonse, or without success in obtaining information I want, or in resolving a particular issue. But when I finally picked up the phone and called, the matter was resolved quite easily. Duh! It may not work for you in this instance, but it is certainly worth a shot. Someone is much more likely to go out of their way to help you, if you've made a personal connection.
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 3:08 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| So much of what you are complaining about has to do with people not replying to emails. Have you picked up the phone and called them? |
If the OP reaches IH Rivera Maya by phone,rather than hitting them with a barrage of questions, she should start by simply (and calmly) asking if they still have records of the CELTA students for 2004 -- their first year of operation. Their response should either be yes or no as opposed to "I don't know." However, it seems doubtful they've retained course records from 10+ years ago given their wishy-washy email responses. Plus, according to the OP, Cambridge confirmed they have no documentation from the course provider for that year (her bolding):
| rosalind wrote: |
Paid Cambridge ~ $120 USD for an urgent, expedited records search and validation certification.
And THEY CAN'T FIND IT.
They sent me an email saying, among other things,
> "Centre MX800 [the centre in question] has no records of CELTA exams up to 2004. ... They did however have CELTA exams from 2005 onwards but we were unable to find you listed on our records. Records were searched up to the year 2012. ... We suggest that you contact your Centre regarding this and ask them to confirm if they offered one of our qualifications." |
At this point, if the OP hopes to reach some type of resolution, the burden of proof is on her to show Cambridge the CELTA cert she received from IH Rivera Maya as evidence of having taken/passed the exam. What happens after that...
On a related note, for those interested, Cambridge's site includes info on replacing lost certificates. |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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| Posted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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(Re. the link and sublinks that Nomad just provided) So a potential scammer in their early 30s say could pick a suitable centre and then ask Cambridge for a 'certifying statement' to replace a "lost" certificate ('My house burnt down and I barely made it out in just my slippers'), thanks to Cambridge's apparent lack of infrastructure for collating and archiving its cert results?
I have to say, I find all this (including the OP's problems with the unsuccessful records search) quite shocking for such an expensive and supposedly prestigious cert, but I can't say I'm at all surprised.
Moral of the story is, keep yours in a burn-proof box or something! (Me, I keep mine wrapped in tin foil taped to my stomach). |
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HLJHLJ
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 1218
Location: Ecuador
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| Posted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| I agree with regard to the record keeping. However, I think there are some differences in cultural expectations as well. From what I've read here and elsewhere, I get the impression that being able to get multiple copies of a diploma is fairly standard in the USA. That's not the case in the UK, where you frequently cannot get a diploma replaced at all, under any circumstance. Or, you might be able to get one replacement in a lifetime but it will have 'copy' or 'replacement' stamped across it, which can cause problems with visa applications. Transcripts as an academic record are also a relatively new idea, and typically they are only issued by special request. So your diploma is everything. Once it's been issued that's the end of the university's responsibility to you and it's up to you to keep your precious diploma safe. |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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| Posted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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My university (in Scotland) didn't bat an eyelid when I asked for a transcript for JET way back in 1999, and I'd imagine getting a replacement cert for my degree would be as straightforward. Decent (and actual!) establishments obviously keep better records.
One thing that I noticed when following the Cambridge sublinks is that their records department talks of having over 15 million records, so I guess they're lumping in the CELTA holders with the entire suite of ELT exams and examinees, which can't help matters. |
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currentaffairs
Joined: 22 Aug 2012
Posts: 828
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| Posted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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To the OP: in all your years of teaching you never had to attach copies of your certs when applying for jobs?
I know that when in a tight spot (when my computer broke down with no backup) I went back through hundreds of Yahoo emails and everything is still online from years and years ago in the sent folder! |
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